I wish to raise an issue on this list about offensive images on an article about sexual bondage, [[Hogtie bondage]], to be specific. I don't feel I can justify spending any more time debating this sort of thing on the article discussion page (I want to do more productive things on Wikipedia, like write about cryptography), so I thought I would flag it here in this forum, and trust the outcome to normal Wikipedia processes (even if it's not the outcome I would like). I do think it needs wider attention, as editors who have such a page on their watchlists are likely to be of a certain opinion. Forgive me, though, if I start a discussion that might prove controversial and then quietly sneak off. I'm not a troll, honest! First, I'd like to state that, in general, I support Wikipedia being explicit in its illustration where necessary. I have never had a problem with potentially-offensive photos on pages like [[penis]], [[clitoris]] and the like. If I cared enough (or if I had kids) I could filter Wikipedia myself on the client side without too much hassle. However, to balance that, I think that content which is likely to be offensive, such as nudity, should be used only when there is a compelling case that the offensiveness is unavoidable if the article is to be illustrated properly. I would oppose photographs of nude people kissing in [[kiss]], or two nude people hugging in [[physical intimacy]], because I believe these concepts can be quite adequately illustrated without nudity. I don't suppose this is a particulary controversial line to take. Recently, a proprietor of a bondage pornography site uploaded a number of his images to Wikipedia depicting a woman in various positions of sexual bondage, and added them as illustration to several pages, including (what has now been split off to become) [[Hogtie bondage]]. Two of these photographs used on [[Hogtie bondage]] feature a nude woman. However, I don't believe that nudity is necessary to illustrate this topic -- a hogtie is a way of tying someone up, and the subject can be nude or clothed. Therefore, I would argue that the nude images should not be used within this article. Others disagree (see [[Talk:Hogtie bondage]] and [[Talk:Hogtie]]), and there has been a few reverts over this question (far more than a member of the Harmonious Editing Club would like to own up to -- another reason why I'll probably drop my involvement). I'd like to see what others think. In general, I think we should be very careful when dealing with erotica within Wikipedia. The original purpose of such images is not illustration, so we need to be sure that they do indeed make for good illustration when used as such. In the hogtie case, the owner of the adult website likely had the partial motive of promoting his website (a link was included in the image description pages). And many people readily enjoy seeing titillating images in web pages, regardless of their illustrative value. So I think it's worth making sure there is a robust case for their use, given the potential for offense, because we decrease the value of Wikipedia if we are offensive without good editorial reasons. -- Matt Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Matt_Crypto Blog: http://cipher-text.blogspot.com ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com