I think my main objection to this is the current title: "Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons deserve special sensitivity". The very title pushes Sympathetic Point Of View, whatever the guideline content.
I've suggested on the talk page:
1. Change title to [[Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons]]
2. Start with "Be very hardarsed with references in living persons' bios" and go from there.
That is: the title should be what the guideline *concerns*. And the start should be the guideline itself in a sentence.
Then we can work from there. NPOV, NOR, V. Past examples of why we need this. Don't fall into Sympathetic Point Of View. Etc.
Does this sound workable?
- d.
That is: the title should be what the guideline *concerns*. And the start should be the guideline itself in a sentence.
If every guideline can be stated in a sentence, then presumably a page can be greated with every guideline listed in that form. Does such a thing exist? No one reads *all* the guidelines - but it would not be unreasonable to ask people to read one page with one-line summaries of twenty-odd guidelines.
Steve
Steve Bennett wrote:
That is: the title should be what the guideline *concerns*. And the start should be the guideline itself in a sentence.
If every guideline can be stated in a sentence, then presumably a page can be greated with every guideline listed in that form. Does such a thing exist? No one reads *all* the guidelines - but it would not be unreasonable to ask people to read one page with one-line summaries of twenty-odd guidelines.
That could be a useful idea! Though I'm pretty sure it's a lot more than twenty ... There's categories for these things, so the list should be easy to compile.
(I'm fairly sure when we see the list all in one place a lot of people will go "WTF?" and half will die in short order ;-)
- d.
As is usual, David speaks good sense. The title was a nice introduction to the topic, and is certainly true, but may send people down the wrong path. David's point #2 is absolutely right on target and would deal with most or possibly even all of the issues in this area quite well.
David Gerard wrote:
I think my main objection to this is the current title: "Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons deserve special sensitivity". The very title pushes Sympathetic Point Of View, whatever the guideline content.
I've suggested on the talk page:
Change title to [[Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons]]
Start with "Be very hardarsed with references in living persons'
bios" and go from there.
That is: the title should be what the guideline *concerns*. And the start should be the guideline itself in a sentence.
Then we can work from there. NPOV, NOR, V. Past examples of why we need this. Don't fall into Sympathetic Point Of View. Etc.
Does this sound workable?
To me it does.
David's got it spot on when he says the most important thing is to reference everything - and with impeccable sources at that (though David obviously phrases it in his slight more to-the-point style). His suggested new name for the page is much better than its current location too.
There is one other point in the project page which is important, I think. We have many articles on living persons who have chosen to put themselves in the public domain. This would include politicians, celebrities, pop stars and widely published authors. We also have articles on living persons who are notable, but who have not chosen to put their lives in the public domain. We really should be careful about what private information we publish about the latter. Some background information (eg where a subject was born, was educated, whether the subject is married and to whom) may be appropriate, but it's just not fair to publish more salacious details, even if true (eg affairs, spent convictions). I don't see this as encouraging SPOV over NPOV - private details that would show a subject in a positive light, but are really entirely irrelevant to the subject's notability should likewise be omitted. (At present we have no guideline that I'm awareness on relevance - NPOV, V and NOR will cover the rest.)
Kind regards
Jon
Jimmy Wales jwales@wikia.com wrote: As is usual, David speaks good sense. The title was a nice introduction to the topic, and is certainly true, but may send people down the wrong path. David's point #2 is absolutely right on target and would deal with most or possibly even all of the issues in this area quite well.
David Gerard wrote:
I think my main objection to this is the current title: "Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons deserve special sensitivity". The very title pushes Sympathetic Point Of View, whatever the guideline content.
I've suggested on the talk page:
Change title to [[Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons]]
Start with "Be very hardarsed with references in living persons'
bios" and go from there.
That is: the title should be what the guideline *concerns*. And the start should be the guideline itself in a sentence.
Then we can work from there. NPOV, NOR, V. Past examples of why we need this. Don't fall into Sympathetic Point Of View. Etc.
Does this sound workable?
To me it does. _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
--------------------------------- To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre.
Jon wrote:
David's got it spot on when he says the most important thing is to reference everything - and with impeccable sources at that (though David obviously phrases it in his slight more to-the-point style). His suggested new name for the page is much better than its current location too.
The other thing I didn't like about the old one was it was mostly "don't do this" - the /temp version aims to be "do this, do this."
The thing about guidelines is that only editors of good will will read them, and only editors of good will and *clue* will take them in. There's no point addressing editors of bad will, and editors who think J. Random Blog is a solid reference (as opposed to a high-quality blog, e.g. [[Groklaw]]) will need the gentle guidance of more clueful editors.
The other key thing is: Try really hard not to write anything that will be wielded by idiots as a bludgeon. This is a lot of work and requires experience of Wikipedia foolishness ...
There is one other point in the project page which is important, I think. We have many articles on living persons who have chosen to put themselves in the public domain. This would include politicians, celebrities, pop stars and widely published authors. We also have articles on living persons who are notable, but who have not chosen to put their lives in the public domain. We really should be careful about what private information we publish about the latter. Some background information (eg where a subject was born, was educated, whether the subject is married and to whom) may be appropriate, but it's just not fair to publish more salacious details, even if true (eg affairs, spent convictions). I don't see this as encouraging SPOV over NPOV - private details that would show a subject in a positive light, but are really entirely irrelevant to the subject's notability should likewise be omitted. (At present we have no guideline that I'm awareness on relevance - NPOV, V and N OR will cover the rest.)
I'm not sure we need or want ABG (another bloody guideline) - we have far too many as is - because no guideline can ever substitute for actual editorial judgement.
In the case of the people you describe, we don't actually need to consider fairness to the people - fairness to the article will do. If it's relevant to why they have an article, or it's a notable incident in itself, mention it; if not, it probably doesn't belong in the article.
- d.