Christiaan complained:
Just to clarify, I never argued that these people died and suffered _because_ of these ideals. My argument is that our culture has extensively used and abused such ideals simply to make its membership feel good about itself when collectively implementing the opposite (imperialism, intolerance of other economic models, war, etc.). Cognitive dissonance often being the outcome when actuality comes to light.
If you think Western Civilization has not lived up to its ideals, please write a Wikipedia article comparing and contrasting Western ideals with Western actions. I am not suggesting you do original research, but that you summarize the extensive body of writings on this very topic. You could start with Chomsky, easily the best known critic of the West. But don't forget Toynbee (you wouldn't want to write a biased, unbalanced article, would you?)
Along the same lines, if you interested in non-Western civilizations, you might want to do a similar compare and contrast for East Asian, Hindu, Islamic or other great civilizations. How well do these live up to their own ideals (or compare to Western ideals, for that matter?)
This project ought to keep you busy, and I'd be happy to help.
Ed Poor
Poor, Edmund W wrote:
Christiaan complained:
Just to clarify, I never argued that these people died and suffered _because_ of these ideals. My argument is that our culture has extensively used and abused such ideals simply to make its membership feel good about itself when collectively implementing the opposite (imperialism, intolerance of other economic models, war, etc.). Cognitive dissonance often being the outcome when actuality comes to light.
If you think Western Civilization has not lived up to its ideals, please write a Wikipedia article comparing and contrasting Western ideals with Western actions.
Well, its good advice, but my point wasn't to tell you all why I think the West falls short of its rhetoric. My point was simply to make people aware that at least some of us find comments such as Geoff's ethnocentric and offensive. People can take from that what they like; that an intense discussion ensued is not surprising but it wasn't my aim.
Christiaan
On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, Christiaan Briggs wrote:
Poor, Edmund W wrote:
Christiaan complained:
Just to clarify, I never argued that these people died and suffered _because_ of these ideals. My argument is that our culture has extensively used and abused such ideals simply to make its membership feel good about itself when collectively implementing the opposite (imperialism, intolerance of other economic models, war, etc.). Cognitive dissonance often being the outcome when actuality comes to light.
If you think Western Civilization has not lived up to its ideals, please write a Wikipedia article comparing and contrasting Western ideals with Western actions.
Well, its good advice, but my point wasn't to tell you all why I think the West falls short of its rhetoric. My point was simply to make people aware that at least some of us find comments such as Geoff's ethnocentric and offensive. People can take from that what they like; that an intense discussion ensued is not surprising but it wasn't my aim.
If that was your intent, then you failed miserably, Christiaan. All that your emails communicated to me was that you have a poor opinion about Western Civilization, & have expressed it so vehemently & uncompromisingly that I don't see any point in responding to what you have to say. Or even reading it.
If you go back & read what I wrote, you will see that I showed an awareness that not everyone might agree with me. And I attempted to express myself in a way that any reasonable person would not find offensive -- or at least not say things like "Who the hell do you think you are?"
And then when I read your stated belief that:
I never argued that these people died and suffered _because_ of these ideals. My argument is that our culture has extensively used and abused such ideals simply to make its membership feel good about itself when collectively implementing the opposite (imperialism, intolerance of other economic models, war, etc.)
I'm left with an unclear sense how you want us to react. If these ideals are nothing more than opiates to distract us from the fact we members of Western Civilization are wreaking evil upon the rest of the world, then should we dispense with our collective denial & destroy every trace of our culture & kill ourselves in hope that will cleanse the earth of our crimes? Or should we simply all accept that we are little better than thugs & Storm Troopers, & instead take pride in how we oppress & exploit other peoples & nations?
I am not being ironic here: your view of Western Civilization is so condemning & so extreme that I find nothing I can discuss about it with you. And frankly, from what I've read that you have written, I don't feel that you will be happy on Wikipedia because there are many people contributing to Wikipedia who will be praising the ideals, products, & other results of Western Civilization far more fulsomely -- & most likely more fluently -- than I will ever do.
And as a last point, find another word than "ethnocentric" to apply to what I have asserted. The word "ethnocentric" means to "hold one's race as superior to all others" -- & I feel your use of this word accuses me of being racist. That I am clearly not, & except for throwing this word about, you have failed to show that I am so -- unless somehow by my definition of "Western Civilization" you believe that I have excluded non-Caucasian members of this culture such as Asian Americans, Black British, French of North African origin, & countless more groups I could recount. And one could only believe that by abusively misinterpreting what I have written.
Geoff