Right at this moment, Michael is logged in as User:Fuck. He has cottoned on to two key weaknesses in our security setup.
Either one on its own is a problem, but both together is a gaping hole:
(a) There is no way to block a logged-in user if you can't guess his IP address.
(b) You can revert and rollback, but page moves are *much* more difficult to restore. You can't jus rollback a page move, you have to fiddle about making sure you are restoring the right page and not losing the history, and so on.
So far as I can see, there are only three possible solutions - no, make that four, but I don't like the last one much.
(i) Establish a time + number of edits before any new user is unblockable
(ii) Figure out a way to make the Rollback feature work on page moves as well as ordinary edits
(iii) Disallow page moves to ordinary users and make that a sysop-only task
(iv) Pick another half-dozen people, trusted and experienced sysops, and give them the ability to stand in when Brion and Eloquence are not around to block the Michaels of this world. Those guys are great, but they can't be here all the time.
This current vulnerability is a *major* problem, and in my view it needs action RIGHT AWAY.
In the meantime, Michael is running rampage through the database.
Tony
(Tannin)
--- Tony Wilson list@redhill.net.au wrote:
Right at this moment, Michael is logged in as User:Fuck. He has cottoned on to two key weaknesses in our security setup.
Either one on its own is a problem, but both together is a gaping hole:
(a) There is no way to block a logged-in user if you can't guess his IP address.
Tony (Tannin)
I thought developers could block logged in users, just not ordinary sysops. I'd like to change that, though. I think there shouldn't be a distinction between sysop and developer. Or maybe people become developers after one month of sysophood. --LittleDan
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On Thu, 5 Jun 2003, Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
I thought developers could block logged in users, just not ordinary sysops. I'd like to change that, though. I think there shouldn't be a distinction between sysop and developer. Or maybe people become developers after one month of sysophood.
"Developer" in this sense means you have *complete read/write access to the database*. This is very dangerous if you're not intimately familiar with the software and damned careful what you do. Developer commands *are not reversible* and can *irreversibly corrupt or delete the entire database in one action*.
This level of access exists for technical maintenance of the site, *and for no other purpose*. Frankly I'd rather see it removed altogether and restrict these actions to secure shell logins straight to the server.
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
--- Tony Wilson list@redhill.net.au wrote:
Right at this moment, Michael is logged in as User:Fuck.
So what's the problem? Camembert, MyRedDice and their ilk have given him free rein.
Zoe
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Zoe zoecomnena@yahoo.com wrote: --- Tony Wilson wrote:
Right at this moment, Michael is logged in as User:Fuck.
So what's the problem? Camembert, MyRedDice and their ilk have given him free rein.
Zoe
__________________________________
what does that mean "ilk" ?
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At 04:51 AM 6/6/03 -0700, Anthere wrote:
what does that mean "ilk" ?
Basically, it means "those like him/her/them" and is generally used when the writer dislikes the person or group in question. (It comes from an old Scottish kinship term.)
Vicki Rosenzweig vr@redbird.org wrote: At 04:51 AM 6/6/03 -0700, Anthere wrote:
what does that mean "ilk" ?
Basically, it means "those like him/her/them" and is generally used when the writer dislikes the person or group in question. (It comes from an old Scottish kinship term.)
At 07:03 AM 6/6/2003, Antheré wrote:
Oh ! That is very good day then ! I learned a new interesting term. I could just see the relationship with elk, since she was talking of reins. I did not know Zoe played with words. I will read her more carefully then :-)
Would the expression "I feel akin with Martin and Camembert" be proper ?
Actually, the expression would be closer to:
"Camembert and MyRedDice and other people like them, who unwisely give trolls free rein"
Zoe is asserting her DISTASTE for C and M's positions, not an agreement with them. The word "ilk" is usually used, while not as a pejorative per se, as a negative term.... as it is here. It is often used in the following phrase, "you and your ilk" meaning "you and the other unsavory people like you".
In fairness to Zoe, I would imagine she was using it humorously and in hyperbole.
----- Dante Alighieri dalighieri@digitalgrapefruit.com
"The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of great moral crisis." -Dante Alighieri, 1265-1321
--- Dante Alighieri dalighieri@digitalgrapefruit.com wrote:
At 07:03 AM 6/6/2003, Anther� wrote:
(what is that very scandalous accent on my name ???)
Oh ! That is very good day then ! I learned a new
interesting term. I
could just see the relationship with elk, since
she was talking of reins.
I did not know Zoe played with words. I will read
her more carefully then :-)
Would the expression "I feel akin with Martin and
Camembert" be proper ?
Actually, the expression would be closer to:
"Camembert and MyRedDice and other people like them, who unwisely give trolls free rein"
Yes. That is what I understood of what Vicky explained
That is perhaps ...hum..., but, they (we) don't give free rein.
Giving free rein would be in this case, unbanning a banned ip for example. That would be actively doing something which would *help* Michael editing more.
Ok, if I may say, *cough*, giving free rein would be giving a way for Michael to do more messes. What has been done a couple of times was more like picking up the manure, making compost with it, and using it as fertilizer after maturation.
But, not everyone is likely to appreciate this approach
Zoe is asserting her DISTASTE for C and M's positions, not an agreement with them. The word "ilk" is usually used, while not as a pejorative per se, as a negative term.... as it is here. It is often used in the following phrase, "you and your ilk" meaning "you and the other unsavory people like you".
In fairness to Zoe, I would imagine she was using it humorously and in hyperbole.
yes...
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--- Anthere anthere6@yahoo.com wrote:
Zoe is asserting her DISTASTE for C and M's positions, not an agreement with them. The word "ilk" is usually used, while
not
as a pejorative per se, as a negative term.... as it is here. It is often used in the following phrase, "you and your ilk" meaning "you and the other unsavory people like you".
In fairness to Zoe, I would imagine she was using
it
humorously and in hyperbole.
yes...
I (and equally my parents) was unaware that 'ilk' carried any negative connotations. I thought ilk just meant 'other people like you and possibly group with you for whatever discussed similarity. LittleDan
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LittleDan wrote:
I (and equally my parents) was unaware that 'ilk' carried any negative connotations. I thought ilk just meant 'other people like you and possibly group with you for whatever discussed similarity.
The meaning is probably in flux. Remember that some dictionaries don't carry this meaning at all, and none of the ones that I saw marked it as negative. (Although apparently Anthère's translation dictionary did.)
We should probably save these discussion for future work at Wiktionary.
-- Toby
--- Toby Bartels toby+wikipedia@math.ucr.edu wrote:
LittleDan wrote:
I (and equally my parents) was unaware that 'ilk' carried any negative connotations. I thought ilk
just
meant 'other people like you and possibly group
with
you for whatever discussed similarity.
The meaning is probably in flux. Remember that some dictionaries don't carry this meaning at all, and none of the ones that I saw marked it as negative. (Although apparently Anth�re's translation dictionary did.)
Harraps New Shorter is usually the best reference for english-french translation dictionary
We should probably save these discussion for future work at Wiktionary.
Definitly. The word should be included. I would do it myself right now if Wiktionary was not in Unicode :-(
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Anthere wrote:
--- Toby Bartels toby+wikipedia@math.ucr.edu wrote:
LittleDan wrote:
I (and equally my parents) was unaware that 'ilk' carried any negative connotations. I thought ilk
just
meant 'other people like you and possibly group
with
you for whatever discussed similarity.
The meaning is probably in flux. Remember that some dictionaries don't carry this meaning at all, and none of the ones that I saw marked it as negative. (Although apparently Anthère's translation dictionary did.)
Harraps New Shorter is usually the best reference for english-french translation dictionary
We should probably save these discussion for future work at Wiktionary.
Definitly. The word should be included. I would do it myself right now if Wiktionary was not in Unicode :-(
Message received :-) . I'll put it on my "to do" list.
Ec
Anthere wrote:
what does that mean "ilk" ?
Short answer: It means "type".
Long answer: That's a good question.
The OED says that every usage of "ilk" is either obsolete, Scottish, or erroneous (exactly 1). The usage that I know, and that Zoe was using, is the one labelled "erroneous" by the OED: "that ilk: That family, class, set, or 'lot'. Also, by further extension, = kind, sort." Apparently, Zoe's usage of "their" instead of "that" is too erroneous even to merit inclusion. (Which is not a criticism of Zoe, but of the OED.)
Many American dictionaries don't mention this meaning at all, while others give it as the only meaning; "Type or kind" says one; "a kind of person", says another. Among American dictionaries, only Merriam-Webster seems to know about all 3 kinds of usage (still only the OED calls the 3rd "erroneous").
None of these dictionaries mention what I think is most important for understanding Zoe's comment -- it's *derogatory*. Being of a certain ilk is to be a *bad* kind of thing.
I can't find any online English -> French translation dictionary that's ever heard of the word.
-- Toby
--- Toby Bartels toby+wikipedia@math.ucr.edu wrote:
Anthere wrote:
what does that mean "ilk" ?
Short answer: It means "type".
Long answer: That's a good question.
The OED says that every usage of "ilk" is either obsolete, Scottish, or erroneous (exactly 1). The usage that I know, and that Zoe was using, is the one labelled "erroneous" by the OED: "that ilk: That family, class, set, or 'lot'. Also, by further extension, = kind, sort." Apparently, Zoe's usage of "their" instead of "that" is too erroneous even to merit inclusion. (Which is not a criticism of Zoe, but of the OED.)
Many American dictionaries don't mention this meaning at all, while others give it as the only meaning; "Type or kind" says one; "a kind of person", says another. Among American dictionaries, only Merriam-Webster seems to know about all 3 kinds of usage (still only the OED calls the 3rd "erroneous").
None of these dictionaries mention what I think is most important for understanding Zoe's comment -- it's *derogatory*. Being of a certain ilk is to be a *bad* kind of thing.
I can't find any online English -> French translation dictionary that's ever heard of the word.
-- Toby
I found it in a french english dictionary. It was translated by "type" (type) or "genre" (kind) with a strong "pejorative" meaning.
But "genre" ou "type" for us, does not carry the "really bad" .
I think the nearest proper translation for us would be "clique", such as when we say "Bush et sa clique", expression which carry some "bad". (but possibly english and french do not give the same meaning to the word clique).
I looked in my American Heritage dictionnary, and found the ancient meaning refered to "people of the same place, some territories, or names", mostly landowners. That sounds very much like the scottish "clan" to me.
All right. That is an expression I like. Thanks alot Zoe
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Tannin wrote in part:
(i) Establish a time + number of edits before any new user is unblockable
(ii) Figure out a way to make the Rollback feature work on page moves as well as ordinary edits
(iii) Disallow page moves to ordinary users and make that a sysop-only task
(iv) Pick another half-dozen people, trusted and experienced sysops, and give them the ability to stand in when Brion and Eloquence are not around to block the Michaels of this world. Those guys are great, but they can't be here all the time.
This is probably the best *temporary* solution, since we can do it right away.
But ultimately, the solution that we need is:
(v) Allow sysops to block users by username.
Not that this will solve *everything*, but at least it gives back a tool for dealing with vandalism that the savvy vandals know how to get around easily.
In the meantime, Michael is running rampage through the database.
Is there a page where people are keeping track of Michael's usernames? I could make it a point to look at that page whenever I go on. As it is, I don't know how to find him, so I do (almost) nothing.
-- Toby