From: Fred Bauder [mailto: fredbaud@ctelco.net]
So it seems that LibertarianAnarchist, in fact, is an advocate of a Hindu Nationalist Point of View with a decidely fascist tinge to his assertions.
This sort of statement is nothing but slander. My own political leaning is towards a peaceful anarchy. I do not support any political party.
However, the following are FACTS:
1) India is a democracy.
2) India's ruling coalition has a Hindu Prime Minister, a Christian Defence Minister and the President is a Muslim who was the ruling party's candidate.
3) India is a secular state and the issue is not between secularism and Hindu theocracy. Those who are branded Hindu fascists are those who question the following laws in India and want to abolish them.
(a) The Shariat is applicable in India and Muslim women are at the mercy of Mullahs. This is supposedly to protect "Muslim culture." The courts cannot rule in cases relating to Muslim women and there was a case where the Mullahs decided to shave the head of a woman seeking divorce. (b) Muslims are allowed to run educational institutions and even get Government funding and so Madrasas are funded. However, Hindus are not allowed to run educational institutions! (c) Haj trips to Mecca are subsidised. You know, fascism and all that, there are people who want to remove this subsidy. (d) The only Muslim majority state in India gets special rights! All others are equal, but some are more equal. The special right in this case is that Kashmiri Muslims can buy property anywhere in India, while the other indians are banned from buying property in Kashmir.
4) India was a socialist state and I am surprised that you do not know this! It modelled itself after USSR complete with a planning commission and public sector companies and private enterprise was for all practical purposes banned until recently. You needed to get a license to run a factory or start a company.
5) The Indian English language media *is* Communist. Search for N.Ram who is the editor of 'The Hindu.' He called the agitation in Tiananmen Square a "western inspired revachenist conspiracy by counterrevolutionaries" and here are links to EDITORIALS which appeared in Times of India. I've given these two editorials because they appeared on the same day! Two pro-Communist editorials on a single day. The second one fondly desires that the two Communist parties merge into one.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/xml/uncomp/articleshow?art_id=600... "Perhaps this is what Vladimir Lenin meant when he referred to imperialism being the highest stage of capitalism."
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/xml/uncomp/articleshow?art_id=600... Comrades All
Here is more stuff from Times of India: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/xml/uncomp/articleshow?art_id=103... Capitalism is as flawed as other systems
"Lenin was logically consistent in refusing to allow freedom of choice in either political or material goods."
6) VR Krishna Iyer quoted in the article was a Minister in the Marxist Govt. This is a FACT. You can deny it for all you want.
7) Sabrang is a Communist organization. This is also a FACT.
8) When the initial firebombing happened, the editorials of the Communist rags blamed the Hindus. If you are ignorant of this, what am I supposed to do?
9) The article in question which now uses the words "apparently Hindus" actually used the words "allegedly Hindus" until not so long ago, but a few paragraphs below, it makes an ASSERTION that they were Hindus who created trouble and hence the spontaneous firebombing happened. You see, except you and your whiteskinned race, the rest of us are barbarians.
10) Travel across North India and you will see that not a single Hindu temple older than 150 years exists which has not been smashed by Muslim invaders.
11) Islam has been an aggressive religion. This is a FACT. It has caused damage and misery. This is also a FACT. Hindus have not been violent despite your best efforts to project Hindus that way. This is also a FACT. Keep denying all you want. It wasn't the Hindus who slammed planes into buildings killing thousands of people. You are a bigoted person to brand Hindus who are one of the most peaceful people as fascists. Shame on you.
Let me tell you why you wrote what you did. You are probably a White skinned American who is brainwashed into believing that only White Americans are peaceful people while all the rest are barbarians. No wonder you guys supported Osama bin Laden without batting an eyelid and consider it a sacred act of defending liberty even though he was killing people in other countries.
Asking for factual accuracies is Hindu fascism? Since when is that? Admit it, you didn't know that indian media is communist, that indian media actually gloated when Hindus were firebombed and you blame Hindus of whining.
Oh yes, white skins are here to save the world and any attack on whites is an attack on liberty while evil Hindus will lob nuclear missiles all over the world and therefore the world is a dangerous place! After all, it was the evil Hindus who dropped atomic bombs on Japan even though Japan was on the verge of surrender and the Generals had said that it wasn't required.
I am sorry to say that such entries which carry propaganda and factual inaccuracies not only show Wikipedia to be of poor quality but posts such as Fred Bauder's are nothing short of racist.
If any indian political party of any indian acts against freedom, trust me, I will be the first to oppose it. Instead, Fred Bauder has indulged in mudslinging and a racist attack.
I have given references and proven that the media is indeed Marxist. Why are you against going by verifiable information? I am truly puzzled.
-a
_______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Introducing My Way - http://www.myway.com
I do not agree with the assertion that Fred has slandered anyone in his post.
Slander is verbal; when it is written it is libel, last I checked all email is written: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation therefore even technically speaking Fred has not slandered anyone.
Quite frankly it is Fred's opinion, that is not defamation. Your reputation is not damaged, it stands for itself. Fred is entitled to his opinion about you, and your writing as you are about him and his writing. He has not damaged your reputation. What reputation do you have? As far as I can tell, none.
Wikipedia is an information resource; it is not a soapbox; if you want to add information about the links between India and the USSR the place to do it is not on this discussion list. Do it in a factual way and cite your primary sources.
You may rant all you want, but I do think you are reading too much into Fred's comments. If you are going to write on Wikipedia you had better be prepared for people to criticize you.
I do not think you can tell Fred's race from his name. My brother in law is named Alex like me, and he is a Farsi, my roommate is named Sam and he is Palestinian. My other brother in law is named Bob and he is a hindu. I do not think that you can tell someone's race from their name, many Americans change there name so that it is easy to pronounce; that is all, it is not some white man's conspiracy; in this country we actually have a form of multiculturalism that works.
The fact is that people, be they hindus, muslims, christians, jews, satanists, tree huggers or any thing else are both good and bad (though I have never met a tree hugger who was bad). You cannot tell an individual's worth by their religious affiliation. Making such generalizations really does not one any good; it does not advance knowledge or understanding. It perpetuates ignorance. Fred was merely stating that your expressed views seems that your writings had a Indian nationalist POV with a fascist leading to your assertions. Is calling Hilter a fascist defamation? No it is a factually accurate statement. Everyone knows that the nazi's were very close to many Indian nationalists during WWII. I don't think that Fred is stating anything really controversial if he states that you have a fascist leaning perspective. In fact some Indians would be proud of that perspective, so maybe you could explain how that might be defamation?
I am sorry you have such pain and anger. Perhaps you should hug a tree, it might do you some good.
alex756
----- Original Message ----- From: "libertarian" libertarian@myway.com To: wikien-l@Wikipedia.org Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 11:54 PM Subject: [WikiEN-l] Fred Bauder's slander [was:India problems]
From: Fred Bauder [mailto: fredbaud@ctelco.net]
So it seems that LibertarianAnarchist, in fact, is an advocate of a Hindu Nationalist Point of View with a decidely fascist tinge to his assertions.
This sort of statement is nothing but slander. My own political leaning is towards a peaceful anarchy. I do not support any political party.
However, the following are FACTS:
India is a democracy.
India's ruling coalition has a Hindu Prime Minister, a Christian
Defence Minister and the President is a Muslim who was the ruling party's candidate.
- India is a secular state and the issue is not between secularism
and Hindu theocracy. Those who are branded Hindu fascists are those who question the following laws in India and want to abolish them.
(a) The Shariat is applicable in India and Muslim women are at the mercy of Mullahs. This is supposedly to protect "Muslim culture." The courts cannot rule in cases relating to Muslim women and there was a case where the Mullahs decided to shave the head of a woman seeking divorce. (b) Muslims are allowed to run educational institutions and even get Government funding and so Madrasas are funded. However, Hindus are not allowed to run educational institutions! (c) Haj trips to Mecca are subsidised. You know, fascism and all that, there are people who want to remove this subsidy. (d) The only Muslim majority state in India gets special rights! All others are equal, but some are more equal. The special right in this case is that Kashmiri Muslims can buy property anywhere in India, while the other indians are banned from buying property in Kashmir.
- India was a socialist state and I am surprised that you do not
know this! It modelled itself after USSR complete with a planning commission and public sector companies and private enterprise was for all practical purposes banned until recently. You needed to get a license to run a factory or start a company.
- The Indian English language media *is* Communist. Search for
N.Ram who is the editor of 'The Hindu.' He called the agitation in Tiananmen Square a "western inspired revachenist conspiracy by counterrevolutionaries" and here are links to EDITORIALS which appeared in Times of India. I've given these two editorials because they appeared on the same day! Two pro-Communist editorials on a single day. The second one fondly desires that the two Communist parties merge into one.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/xml/uncomp/articleshow?art_id=600...
"Perhaps this is what Vladimir Lenin meant when he referred to imperialism
being the highest stage of capitalism."
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/xml/uncomp/articleshow?art_id=600...
Comrades All
Here is more stuff from Times of India:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/xml/uncomp/articleshow?art_id=103...
Capitalism is as flawed as other systems
"Lenin was logically consistent in refusing to allow freedom of choice in
either political or material goods."
- VR Krishna Iyer quoted in the article was a Minister in the
Marxist Govt. This is a FACT. You can deny it for all you want.
Sabrang is a Communist organization. This is also a FACT.
When the initial firebombing happened, the editorials of the
Communist rags blamed the Hindus. If you are ignorant of this, what am I supposed to do?
- The article in question which now uses the words "apparently
Hindus" actually used the words "allegedly Hindus" until not so long ago, but a few paragraphs below, it makes an ASSERTION that they were Hindus who created trouble and hence the spontaneous firebombing happened. You see, except you and your whiteskinned race, the rest of us are barbarians.
- Travel across North India and you will see that not a single
Hindu temple older than 150 years exists which has not been smashed by Muslim invaders.
- Islam has been an aggressive religion. This is a FACT. It has
caused damage and misery. This is also a FACT. Hindus have not been violent despite your best efforts to project Hindus that way. This is also a FACT. Keep denying all you want. It wasn't the Hindus who slammed planes into buildings killing thousands of people. You are a bigoted person to brand Hindus who are one of the most peaceful people as fascists. Shame on you.
Let me tell you why you wrote what you did. You are probably aWhite skinned American who is brainwashed into believing that only White Americans are peaceful people while all the rest are barbarians. No wonder you guys supported Osama bin Laden without batting an eyelid and consider it a sacred act of defending liberty even though he was killing people in other countries.
Asking for factual accuracies is Hindu fascism? Since when is that? Admit it, you didn't know that indian media is communist, that indian media actually gloated when Hindus were firebombed and you blame Hindus of whining.
Oh yes, white skins are here to save the world and any attack on whites is an attack on liberty while evil Hindus will lob nuclear missiles all over the world and therefore the world is a dangerous place! After all, it was the evil Hindus who dropped atomic bombs on Japan even though Japan was on the verge of surrender and the Generals had said that it wasn't required.
I am sorry to say that such entries which carry propaganda and factual inaccuracies not only show Wikipedia to be of poor quality but posts such as Fred Bauder's are nothing short of racist.
If any indian political party of any indian acts against freedom, trust me, I will be the first to oppose it. Instead, Fred Bauder has indulged in mudslinging and a racist attack.
I have given references and proven that the media is indeed Marxist. Why are you against going by verifiable information? I am truly puzzled.
-a
libertarian wrote: [snip]
You see, except you and your whiteskinned race, the rest of us are barbarians.
[snip]
Let me tell you why you wrote what you did. You are probably aWhite skinned American who is brainwashed into believing that only White Americans are peaceful people while all the rest are barbarians. No wonder you guys supported Osama bin Laden without batting an eyelid and consider it a sacred act of defending liberty even though he was killing people in other countries.
[snip]
Oh yes, white skins are here to save the world and any attack on whites is an attack on liberty while evil Hindus will lob nuclear missiles all over the world and therefore the world is a dangerous place! After all, it was the evil Hindus who dropped atomic bombs on Japan even though Japan was on the verge of surrender and the Generals had said that it wasn't required.
I don't want to get into this discussion as a whole, but to these, I say: your ignorance of the modern US is showing. Do you know what lesson is repeatedly drilled into children in schools here in history and culture classes? "Whites are bad. They oppressed everyone, kill people, enslave people. Basically every white male in history was utterly evil. Everything that's ever gone wrong is 100% white men's fault. No one else has ever done anything wrong. All whites are still profiting off what happened long ago, you should all be so guilty." It's tremendous and pervasive. Now, I'm not trying to deny that a lot of horrible things have been done, and so on, but there's this constant portrayal of members of any other race as good and virtuous and wise and never doing anything bad. And honestly, as for anti-Hindu attitude, a lot of average Americans forget Hinduism exists, much of the time. Muslims get portrayed as barbarians rather a lot lately... but that's about it.
-- Jake, who expects nasty comments for this...
From: Fred Bauder [mailto: fredbaud@ctelco.net]
So it seems that LibertarianAnarchist, in fact, is an advocate of a Hindu Nationalist Point of View with a decidely fascist tinge to his assertions.
This sort of statement is nothing but slander. My own political leaning is towards a peaceful anarchy. I do not support any political party.
However, the following are FACTS:
I think the most important fact about India relevant to this discussion is that it is the largest Muslim nation in the world. That is, more muslims live in India than in any other state. Government policies have been designed to as much as possible, given the history of Islamic Hindu interactions, to integrate Muslims into the Indian nation as full citizens. This is in part, looking into possible futures, to avoid trouble, part simply respect for fellow Indian citizens.
Fred