Timwi wrote:
Even shorter: Your [[IP address]] will be logged when you submit. If you are not [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]], it will be shown publicly. See [[Wikipedia:Privacy policy|privacy policy]].
"SUBMIT! SUBMIT TO WIKIPEDIA!" heh :-)
The use of "logged" in two different ways is (apparently) very bad. How about:
Your [[IP address]] is recorded when you edit. If you are not [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]], it will be shown publicly. See [[Wikipedia:Privacy policy|privacy policy]].
Can anyone go even shorter and not lose important info?
- d.
David Gerard wrote:
Timwi wrote:
Even shorter: Your [[IP address]] will be logged when you submit. If you are not [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]], it will be shown publicly. See [[Wikipedia:Privacy policy|privacy policy]].
"SUBMIT! SUBMIT TO WIKIPEDIA!" heh :-)
I had it say "edit" in my first version, but I changed it to "submit" because people unfamiliar with the basics of HTTP might take it to mean that your IP will be recorded as soon as you make any change to the text in the text box. Maybe "click 'Save'" would be best.
The use of "logged" in two different ways is (apparently) very bad. How about:
I agree. "Record" is a better choice.
Updated version thus:
Your [[IP address]] will be recorded when you click 'Save'. If you are not [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]], it will be shown publicly. See [[Wikipedia:Privacy policy|privacy policy]].
Aside: unfortunately, people unfamiliar with the Wiki concept get intimidated or frightened even when they just bring up the edit screen. It can easily feel like you're trespassing and you shouldn't be there, even before you actually submit anything. A message such as the above doesn't help this; it increases the fear of repercussions for doing something wrong.
Timwi
Timwi wrote:
Your [[IP address]] will be recorded when you click 'Save'. If you are not [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]], it will be shown publicly. See [[Wikipedia:Privacy policy|privacy policy]].
To make it even less scary, how about:
:Unless you are [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]] your edit will be signed with your [[IP address]] when you click 'Save'. See our [[Wikipedia:Privacy policy|privacy policy]].
Having an edit be signed with your IP number is IMO less threatening than saying we'll show your IP number publically, more of a way of granting attribution for the contributor's fine work than a warning that "we're watching you!". This version does unfortunately omit the point that Wikipedia records the IP address of logged-in users too, but it's not like we can compress every detail of the privacy policy down into just two lines and it should be pretty obvious to anyone who's thinking about this sort of thing so hopefully not a major omission.
To make it even less scary, how about:
:Unless you are [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]] your edit will be signed with your [[IP address]] when you click 'Save'. See our [[Wikipedia:Privacy policy|privacy policy]].
Having an edit be signed with your IP number is IMO less threatening than saying we'll show your IP number publically, more of a way of granting attribution for the contributor's fine work than a warning that "we're watching you!". This version does unfortunately omit the point that Wikipedia records the IP address of logged-in users too, but it's not like we can compress every detail of the privacy policy down into just two lines and it should be pretty obvious to anyone who's thinking about this sort of thing so hopefully not a major omission.
The thing is, this is factually incorrect. Your IP address *will* be recorded and associated with your edits if you are signed in, and this omits the fact that if you are not logged in, it will be associated with your edits publically. This is the key point of adding this message - to warn people that their IP address will be made public if they edit without being logged in. Omit this, and you may as well not have the warning.
Chris
Chris Jenkinson wrote:
To make it even less scary, how about:
:Unless you are [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]] your edit will be signed with your [[IP address]] when you click 'Save'. See our [[Wikipedia:Privacy policy|privacy policy]].
Having an edit be signed with your IP number is IMO less threatening than saying we'll show your IP number publically, more of a way of granting attribution for the contributor's fine work than a warning that "we're watching you!". This version does unfortunately omit the point that Wikipedia records the IP address of logged-in users too, but it's not like we can compress every detail of the privacy policy down into just two lines and it should be pretty obvious to anyone who's thinking about this sort of thing so hopefully not a major omission.
The thing is, this is factually incorrect. Your IP address *will* be recorded and associated with your edits if you are signed in, and this omits the fact that if you are not logged in, it will be associated with your edits publically. This is the key point of adding this message - to warn people that their IP address will be made public if they edit without being logged in. Omit this, and you may as well not have the warning.
I'm afraid I don't understand your objection. My proposed wording says "Unless you are [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]] your edit will be signed with your [[IP address]] when you click 'Save'," which explicitly says your IP address _will_ be made public (signatures are public by nature) - it's the whole point of the thing. It doesn't say one way or another whether your IP address will be recorded if you're logged in, so that's not factually incorrect either. I addressed that in my comment.
Bryan Derksen wrote:
I'm afraid I don't understand your objection. My proposed wording says "Unless you are [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]] your edit will be signed with your [[IP address]] when you click 'Save'," which explicitly says your IP address _will_ be made public (signatures are public by nature)
- it's the whole point of the thing. It doesn't say one way or another
whether your IP address will be recorded if you're logged in, so that's not factually incorrect either. I addressed that in my comment.
It doesn't explicitly say it, it implicitly says it - if you take "signed" to mean publically. I have never been aware of a signature to be public.
Your proposed wording also implies that your IP address will not be "signed" with your edits if you are logged in, which might be true according to your definition of a signature, but your phrasing is ambiguous and confusing.
Chris
Once again, such a disclaimer must clearly state the agreement of the user.
My proposal is :
Unless you are [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]], by editing Wikipedia you agree that your edit will be signed with your [[IP address]]. If you are [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]], by editing Wikipedia you agree that your edit will be signed with [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]]. In both cases, you agree that these personal data will be used internally and publicly available. Please see our [[wikipedia:privacy policy|privacy policy]].
Jean-Baptiste Soufron, juriwiki-l
Chris Jenkinson wrote:
Bryan Derksen wrote:
I'm afraid I don't understand your objection. My proposed wording says "Unless you are [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]] your edit will be signed with your [[IP address]] when you click 'Save'," which explicitly says your IP address _will_ be made public (signatures are public by nature) - it's the whole point of the thing. It doesn't say one way or another whether your IP address will be recorded if you're logged in, so that's not factually incorrect either. I addressed that in my comment.
It doesn't explicitly say it, it implicitly says it - if you take "signed" to mean publically. I have never been aware of a signature to be public.
Your proposed wording also implies that your IP address will not be "signed" with your edits if you are logged in, which might be true according to your definition of a signature, but your phrasing is ambiguous and confusing.
Chris _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
On Mon, 2005-10-31 at 10:09 -0800, Bryan Derksen wrote:
Timwi wrote:
Your [[IP address]] will be recorded when you click 'Save'. If you are not [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]], it will be shown publicly. See [[Wikipedia:Privacy policy|privacy policy]].To make it even less scary, how about:
:Unless you are [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]] your edit will be signed with your [[IP address]] when you click 'Save'. See our [[Wikipedia:Privacy policy|privacy policy]].
Is there an advantage to having different messages for logged-in and not-logged-in users?
Logged in: Your edit will be signed with your user name when you click 'Save'. See our [[Wikipedia:Privacy policy|privacy policy]].
Not logged in: Your edit will be signed with your [[IP address]] when you click 'Save'. See our [[Wikipedia:Privacy policy|privacy policy]].
(Actually, I like Bryan's combined version better than these; but maybe somebody can come up with better wording for separated messages.)
Carl Witty
On 10/31/05, Timwi timwi@gmx.net wrote:
[...]. Maybe "click 'Save'" would be best.
Please don't ever tell people to click something in MediaWiki messages, not everybody browses with a mousepointer, say something like "follow the link" or "submit the form" etc.
Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:
On 10/31/05, Timwi timwi@gmx.net wrote:
[...]. Maybe "click 'Save'" would be best.
Please don't ever tell people to click something in MediaWiki messages, not everybody browses with a mousepointer, say something like "follow the link" or "submit the form" etc.
I used to think that way too, but I've come to realise that people who don't use the mouse usually still understand what is meant by "click the button", while the people who *do* use mouse pointers - presumably on the order of 99% of people - wouldn't understand any other phrasing as clearly. Note that the word "click" doesn't actually imply a mouse; when you press Enter or Right-Arrow in lynx, you could just as well refer to that as "clicking a link".
So why doesn't lynx refer to it as "clicking"? Well, I think the main reason this opposition to the terminology "click" has developed, is that the people who use the keyboard by choice (rather than due to disability) tend to think of themselves as more competent computer users, and therefore tend to regard the mouse users as inferior. As a result, the suggestion to "click" something feels subtly condescending to them, so they get offended at it. I find this pattern of behaviour quite anti-social, so I don't want to reinforce it.
Timwi
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Timwi wrote:
Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:
On 10/31/05, Timwi timwi@gmx.net wrote:
[...]. Maybe "click 'Save'" would be best.
Please don't ever tell people to click something in MediaWiki messages, not everybody browses with a mousepointer, say something like "follow the link" or "submit the form" etc.
I used to think that way too, but I've come to realise that people who don't use the mouse usually still understand what is meant by "click the button", while the people who *do* use mouse pointers - presumably on the order of 99% of people - wouldn't understand any other phrasing as clearly. Note that the word "click" doesn't actually imply a mouse; when you press Enter or Right-Arrow in lynx, you could just as well refer to that as "clicking a link".
So why doesn't lynx refer to it as "clicking"? Well, I think the main reason this opposition to the terminology "click" has developed, is that the people who use the keyboard by choice (rather than due to disability) tend to think of themselves as more competent computer users, and therefore tend to regard the mouse users as inferior. As a result, the suggestion to "click" something feels subtly condescending to them, so they get offended at it. I find this pattern of behaviour quite anti-social, so I don't want to reinforce it.
Ever heard people talking about websites on radio or TV saying "click onto www.asdf.com"? GARGH! HOW DO YOU CLICK SOMETHING OUTSIDE THE CONTEXT OF IT BEING A HYPERLINK ON A PAGE???????????????
(Sorry, grammar is a pet peeve of mine...)
An interesting note to this discussion: the javascript method for submitting a form is .submit(); the method for submitting any other input button (regardless of it's actual behaviour) is .click() - so it would seem that "convention" dictates that no matter what the actual method, a button must be "clicked".
(Here's an idea: have a "popup" that asks IP editors "Are you sure you want to submit this edit? Your IP will be recorded in accordance with our privacy policy" whenever they submit the edit form. It would slow vandals down a bit...)
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