As most of you probably know, China has recently blocked (again) access to Wikipedia. I've gotten around their Great Firewall by installing tor, but now, I find that my edit access to pages is blocked, because I appear to be coming from an open proxy.
I don't understand why my edit access is blocked, even though I'm logged in as a valid user (Klortho). I'm sure there's a good reason, but I don't understand it. Anyway, is there any way around this? I certainly hope so, because it seems ironic to me that Wikipedia, in effect, puts up an additional barrier to Chinese people wanting to express themselves (in addition to the censorship by the government, that is).
On 10/25/05, Christopher Maloney voldrani@gmail.com wrote:
As most of you probably know, China has recently blocked (again) access to Wikipedia. I've gotten around their Great Firewall by installing tor, but now, I find that my edit access to pages is blocked, because I appear to be coming from an open proxy.
I don't understand why my edit access is blocked, even though I'm logged in as a valid user (Klortho). I'm sure there's a good reason, but I don't understand it. Anyway, is there any way around this? I certainly hope so, because it seems ironic to me that Wikipedia, in effect, puts up an additional barrier to Chinese people wanting to express themselves (in addition to the censorship by the government, that is).
Because we get so much vandalism through Tor proxies that it isn't worth unblocking them. When we block ips it prevents anyone from useing them even if they have an account.
-- geni
There's no way to keep anonymous proxy users blocked and let logged-in proxy users edit?
On 10/25/05, geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
On 10/25/05, Christopher Maloney voldrani@gmail.com wrote:
As most of you probably know, China has recently blocked (again) access to Wikipedia. I've gotten around their Great Firewall by installing tor, but now, I find that my edit access to pages is blocked, because I appear to be coming from an open proxy.
I don't understand why my edit access is blocked, even though I'm logged in as a valid user (Klortho). I'm sure there's a good reason, but I don't understand it. Anyway, is there any way around this? I certainly hope so, because it seems ironic to me that Wikipedia, in effect, puts up an additional barrier to Chinese people wanting to express themselves (in addition to the censorship by the government, that is).
Because we get so much vandalism through Tor proxies that it isn't worth unblocking them. When we block ips it prevents anyone from useing them even if they have an account.
-- geni _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Ben Yates wrote:
There's no way to keep anonymous proxy users blocked and let logged-in proxy users edit?
Some of the worst vandalbots create accounts.
Still, your point is absolutely valid in the broader sense. What changes could be make that might allow us to mitigate the problems of anonymous proxies in a gentler way than wholesale blocking?
Keep in mind that ideas are essentially useless, at least as compared to simple running code. So those of us who want to get something done in this area have a responsibility to either code it, or make sure that our great heroes the programmers understand that their humble subjects would be overjoyed to see something good in this area. :-)
--Jimbo
On 10/25/05, Jimmy Wales jwales@wikia.com wrote:
Ben Yates wrote:
There's no way to keep anonymous proxy users blocked and let logged-in
proxy
users edit?
Some of the worst vandalbots create accounts.
Still, your point is absolutely valid in the broader sense. What changes could be make that might allow us to mitigate the problems of anonymous proxies in a gentler way than wholesale blocking?
Keep in mind that ideas are essentially useless, at least as compared to simple running code. So those of us who want to get something done in this area have a responsibility to either code it, or make sure that our great heroes the programmers understand that their humble subjects would be overjoyed to see something good in this area. :-)
--Jimbo
Yes, code is better than ideas, but it is my understanding that people at Tor offered to help code up a plugin that would allow any admin to block all Tor exit nodes for 30 minutes. Also, some users have already been working on code to block all Tor exit nodes permanently, citing a policy against open proxies and then listing *your name* as the person to contact. It's even been run for a while (that's why about half the exit nodes are blocked), but it was stopped because so many complaints were received). If I recall correctly, you declared on this list that all open proxies should be blocked (implying if not saying that they should be blocked permanently). Is this how you feel about Tor?
If people are working on the code to block these proxies anyway, you're not seriously suggesting that the people working on the code have the sole right to determine how long the blocks should last, are you?
On 10/25/05, Christopher Maloney voldrani@gmail.com wrote:
As most of you probably know, China has recently blocked (again) access to Wikipedia. I've gotten around their Great Firewall by installing tor, but now, I find that my edit access to pages is blocked, because I appear to be coming from an open proxy.
I don't understand why my edit access is blocked, even though I'm logged in as a valid user (Klortho). I'm sure there's a good reason, but I don't understand it. Anyway, is there any way around this? I certainly hope so, because it seems ironic to me that Wikipedia, in effect, puts up an additional barrier to Chinese people wanting to express themselves (in addition to the censorship by the government, that is).
Keep trying. I started using Tor after all the talk of admins being able to see my IP address, and I've found that only about half the exit nodes are blocked. You can set up your Tor config file to exclude those exit nodes that are blocked, as you find them. There was some talk at some point about giving admins the power to block and unblock all Tor exit nodes simultaneously (blocking them for 30 minutes at a time). I'm not sure if this is in the implementation stages or not, but it'd be a good solution. Anthony
IP blocks are wrong.
Jack (Sam Spade)
As most of you probably know, China has recently blocked (again) access to Wikipedia. I've gotten around their Great Firewall by installing tor, but now, I find that my edit access to pages is blocked, because I appear to be coming from an open proxy.
I don't understand why my edit access is blocked, even though I'm logged in as a valid user (Klortho). I'm sure there's a good reason, but I don't understand it. Anyway, is there any way around this? I certainly hope so, because it seems ironic to me that Wikipedia, in effect, puts up an additional barrier to Chinese people wanting to express themselves (in addition to the censorship by the government, that is).
On 10/25/05, Christopher Maloney voldrani@gmail.com wrote:
As most of you probably know, China has recently blocked (again) access to Wikipedia. I've gotten around their Great Firewall by installing tor, but now, I find that my edit access to pages is blocked, because I appear to be coming from an open proxy.
I don't understand why my edit access is blocked, even though I'm logged in as a valid user (Klortho). I'm sure there's a good reason, but I don't understand it. Anyway, is there any way around this? I certainly hope so, because it seems ironic to me that Wikipedia, in effect, puts up an additional barrier to Chinese people wanting to express themselves (in addition to the censorship by the government, that is).
This *very issue* is right now being proposed as a policy, here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Blocking_policy_proposal
Ironically, you yourself may not be able to enter into the discussion (although maybe talk-page editing isn't blocked?), but you can at least see what's happening. At least some people are hoping that this exact situation can be remedied. Good luck.
--smws (user:Kiaparowits)
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
There as well as Bugzilla Bug #550
~Ilya N. (User: Ilyanep)
On 10/25/05, Stefan Sittler kiaparowits@gmail.com wrote:
On 10/25/05, Christopher Maloney voldrani@gmail.com wrote:
As most of you probably know, China has recently blocked (again) access to Wikipedia. I've gotten around their Great Firewall by installing tor, but now, I find that my edit access to pages is blocked, because I appear to be coming from an open proxy.
I don't understand why my edit access is blocked, even though I'm logged in as a valid user (Klortho). I'm sure there's a good reason, but I don't understand it. Anyway, is there any way around this? I certainly hope so, because it seems ironic to me that Wikipedia, in effect, puts up an additional barrier to Chinese people wanting to express themselves (in addition to the censorship by the government, that is).
This *very issue* is right now being proposed as a policy, here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Blocking_policy_proposal
Ironically, you yourself may not be able to enter into the discussion (although maybe talk-page editing isn't blocked?), but you can at least see what's happening. At least some people are hoping that this exact situation can be remedied. Good luck.
--smws (user:Kiaparowits)
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Christopher Maloney wrote:
As most of you probably know, China has recently blocked (again) access to Wikipedia. I've gotten around their Great Firewall by installing tor, but now, I find that my edit access to pages is blocked, because I appear to be coming from an open proxy.
I don't understand why my edit access is blocked, even though I'm logged in as a valid user (Klortho). I'm sure there's a good reason, but I don't understand it. Anyway, is there any way around this? I certainly hope so, because it seems ironic to me that Wikipedia, in effect, puts up an additional barrier to Chinese people wanting to express themselves (in addition to the censorship by the government, that is).
I just created [[Wikipedia:Advice to Tor users in China]] to answer this question:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Advice_to_Tor_users_in_China
-- Tim Starling
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Tim Starling wrote:
Christopher Maloney wrote:
As most of you probably know, China has recently blocked (again) access to Wikipedia. I've gotten around their Great Firewall by installing tor, but now, I find that my edit access to pages is blocked, because I appear to be coming from an open proxy.
I don't understand why my edit access is blocked, even though I'm logged in as a valid user (Klortho). I'm sure there's a good reason, but I don't understand it. Anyway, is there any way around this? I certainly hope so, because it seems ironic to me that Wikipedia, in effect, puts up an additional barrier to Chinese people wanting to express themselves (in addition to the censorship by the government, that is).
I just created [[Wikipedia:Advice to Tor users in China]] to answer this question:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Advice_to_Tor_users_in_China
Isn't Tor back-tracable by timing attack in China due to the size of the network, making any "anonymity" useless?
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On 10/26/05, Alphax alphasigmax@gmail.com wrote:
Isn't Tor back-tracable by timing attack in China due to the size of the network, making any "anonymity" useless?
I think he's less concerned with anonymity than he is about getting around the Great Firewall and being able to edit Wikipedia. If he's worried about prosecution, well, that's his own fear and he should be aware of what is or what is not legally/technically possible. Anyway, that's an issue for Tor and him to worry about, not us.
There are a host of reasonably simple technological solutions which could mitigate most of this (i.e. allowing users with reasonable edit histories to edit from tor accounts) but as Jimbo said all of that means very little unless we sit down and hack out the code for it.
On 10/26/05, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
Looking at http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=550 , the problem isn't having the code to hand - we have code patches on hand for lots of possible options. The problem is deciding what is actually a good idea socially. What's an obviously elegant solution to the problem? If there isn't one, what compromise would make things better rather than worse?
I took a look at it briefly and it seemed to be 80% of the people saying, "This might be a good option to have in some circumstances" and another 20% saying "I dunno, vandals might be able to still abuse it!" Personally, I think it looks like an instance of the perfect trumping the good.
If the code is there to do the "block certain IPs from allowing anon edits but not from account creation" trick, why not just turn it on? If all hell breaks loose we can turn it off again. We don't have to get it perfect on the first try, do we? Whatever happens, the experience would definitely inform future discussion and speculation about these sorts of things.
FF
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Fastfission wrote:
On 10/26/05, Alphax alphasigmax@gmail.com wrote:
Isn't Tor back-tracable by timing attack in China due to the size of the network, making any "anonymity" useless?
I think he's less concerned with anonymity than he is about getting around the Great Firewall and being able to edit Wikipedia. If he's worried about prosecution, well, that's his own fear and he should be aware of what is or what is not legally/technically possible. Anyway, that's an issue for Tor and him to worry about, not us.
Hehe, the Great Firewall of China. Remind me to put that on Uncyclopedia :)
There are a host of reasonably simple technological solutions which could mitigate most of this (i.e. allowing users with reasonable edit histories to edit from tor accounts) but as Jimbo said all of that means very little unless we sit down and hack out the code for it.
I like that proposal. I also like the idea of getting more developers, even if it means training them ourselves. (Hrm, can someone write a Wikibook on Mediawiki?)
On 10/26/05, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
Looking at http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=550 , the problem isn't having the code to hand - we have code patches on hand for lots of possible options. The problem is deciding what is actually a good idea socially. What's an obviously elegant solution to the problem? If there isn't one, what compromise would make things better rather than worse?
I took a look at it briefly and it seemed to be 80% of the people saying, "This might be a good option to have in some circumstances" and another 20% saying "I dunno, vandals might be able to still abuse it!" Personally, I think it looks like an instance of the perfect trumping the good.
Damn, where on en.wp do I vote for that?? I voted for it on buzilla ages ago.
If the code is there to do the "block certain IPs from allowing anon edits but not from account creation" trick, why not just turn it on? If all hell breaks loose we can turn it off again. We don't have to get it perfect on the first try, do we? Whatever happens, the experience would definitely inform future discussion and speculation about these sorts of things.
Agreed. Excellent idea. Turn it on and see what happens.
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