I have been having a problem with user Fred Bauder on the Chiropractic medicine article, and it has no reached the point of vandalism. He is openly and repeatedly committing academic fraud; i.e. bald-faced lying.
In recent days he kept repeatedly citing a paper that specificly attacks chiropractice as frauduent...and somehow claimed that this paper *supported* chiropractic practice. He also rewrote the article to make it sound as if all spinal manipulation was chiropractic, which again is a bald-faced lie. In fact, many medical doctors would consider it actionable libel if their spinal manipulation was referred to in print as "chiropractice". Most medical doctors do not want their work to be tarred with a label that see as pseudoscience. And, in fact, chiropractic theory has nothing to do with mere spinal manipulation. Plenty of medical doctors totally reject chiropractic theory, yet still will manipulate the spine for a limited number of medical conditions.
It gets worse. After being told about these gross erros, Fred Bauder has refused to discuss the issue, refused to address the specific points raised, and has engaged in a series of reverts: Again and again he footnotes and quotes from an article *attacking* chiropractice fradulent, and he dishonestly is using it as if it offers support for chiropractice.
My previous comments to him noted this error, but his continued reversions of the article, and his repetition of this falsehood, now leaves us little choice but to assume that he is deliberately lying. This is vandalism.
If someone wants to cite a peer-reviewed medical report that supports chiropractic theory, fine. If someone wants to cite an article critical of chiropractic, that is fine to. But no one has the right to lie about the views of people who are against something (e.g. chiropractice), and who explicitly write that it has no medical support. Deliberately lying about the views of people (all of whom are medical doctors and scientists) is grossly dishonest.
RK
===== "I prefer a wicked person who knows he is wicked, to a righteous person who knows he is righteous". The Seer of Lublin [Jacob Isaac Ha-Hozeh Mi-Lublin, 1745-1815]
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On Thu, 2003-03-20 at 17:54, Robert wrote:
I have been having a problem with user Fred Bauder on the Chiropractic medicine article, and it has no reached the point of vandalism. He is openly and repeatedly committing academic fraud; i.e. bald-faced lying.
You really need to chill out.
It's a bit difficult to commit academic fraud on Wikipedia. We're not exactly part of the academy.
Remember the adage about honey and vinegar.
If arguments or discussions are getting nowhere, then just edit pages. Spin off distinct subtopics into individual entries.
As it is, the current entry on [[chiropractic medicine]] doesn't have nearly enough info on what chiropractice is yet.
The Cunctator wrote:
On Thu, 2003-03-20 at 17:54, Robert wrote:
I have been having a problem with user Fred Bauder on the Chiropractic medicine article, and it has no reached the point of vandalism. He is openly and repeatedly committing academic fraud; i.e. bald-faced lying.
You really need to chill out.
It's a bit difficult to commit academic fraud on Wikipedia. We're not exactly part of the academy.
... yet! :-)
Here, (I think) is the offending reference it is contained within:
http://www.ncahf.org/pp/chirop.html
"There is substantial evidence that manipulative therapy has value in treating back pain. Although it may not be any more effective than other modalities in the long term, manipulation may offer short term benefits when compared to other commonly used modalities. Several studies have found that about one-third of patients will experience more rapid relief with manipulation than with other modalities.(2-4) Manipulation is probably not utilized as fully as it might be in relieving the symptoms of some chronic disorders. It has been reported to be beneficial in controlling migraine pain.(5) Because manipulation involves the laying on of hands, a procedure employed throughout history by folk and faith healers, it enhances suggestibility and the placebo effect.(6,7) Occasionally, manipulation produces dramatic results. An example involves immediate recovery from paraplegia caused by an auto accident.(8) Manipulative therapy is not without risk. Many cases of serious complications following manipulative therapy have been reported in the medical literature. (9-15)
Chiropractic Manipulation Chiropractors probably are more skilled in the art of manipulation than other practitioners since it constitutes the major emphasis of their training. Chiropractors are usually the most accessible manipulative therapists in a community, and some receive referrals from medical doctors. However, many physicians are reluctant to refer patients to chiropractors. This may be due to a fear that the chiropractor may attempt to indoctrinate patients in deviant health beliefs, a disbelief in the value of manipulative therapy, or an apathy to non-medical practitioners.(5)"
Despite the cricical tenor of the aricle it sets forth both that spinal manipulation is effective for the treatment of low back pain, but points out that to get that treatment the easiest way is to consult a chiropractor.
I really fail to see what is dishonest in citing this passage as a reference.
Fred
From: Robert rkscience100@yahoo.com Reply-To: wikien-l@wikipedia.org Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 14:54:14 -0800 (PST) To: wikien-l@wikipedia.org Subject: [WikiEN-l] Fred Bauder and academic dishonesty
I have been having a problem with user Fred Bauder on the Chiropractic medicine article, and it has no reached the point of vandalism. He is openly and repeatedly committing academic fraud; i.e. bald-faced lying.
In recent days he kept repeatedly citing a paper that specificly attacks chiropractice as frauduent...and somehow claimed that this paper *supported* chiropractic practice. He also rewrote the article to make it sound as if all spinal manipulation was chiropractic, which again is a bald-faced lie. In fact, many medical doctors would consider it actionable libel if their spinal manipulation was referred to in print as "chiropractice". Most medical doctors do not want their work to be tarred with a label that see as pseudoscience. And, in fact, chiropractic theory has nothing to do with mere spinal manipulation. Plenty of medical doctors totally reject chiropractic theory, yet still will manipulate the spine for a limited number of medical conditions.
It gets worse. After being told about these gross erros, Fred Bauder has refused to discuss the issue, refused to address the specific points raised, and has engaged in a series of reverts: Again and again he footnotes and quotes from an article *attacking* chiropractice fradulent, and he dishonestly is using it as if it offers support for chiropractice.
My previous comments to him noted this error, but his continued reversions of the article, and his repetition of this falsehood, now leaves us little choice but to assume that he is deliberately lying. This is vandalism.
If someone wants to cite a peer-reviewed medical report that supports chiropractic theory, fine. If someone wants to cite an article critical of chiropractic, that is fine to. But no one has the right to lie about the views of people who are against something (e.g. chiropractice), and who explicitly write that it has no medical support. Deliberately lying about the views of people (all of whom are medical doctors and scientists) is grossly dishonest.
RK
===== "I prefer a wicked person who knows he is wicked, to a righteous person who knows he is righteous". The Seer of Lublin [Jacob Isaac Ha-Hozeh Mi-Lublin, 1745-1815]
Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@wikipedia.org http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Fred Bauder wrote in part:
Here, (I think) is the offending reference it is contained within: http://www.ncahf.org/pp/chirop.html
[quote snipped]
Despite the cricical tenor of the aricle it sets forth both that spinal manipulation is effective for the treatment of low back pain, but points out that to get that treatment the easiest way is to consult a chiropractor.
Yeah, when I read that passage myself a couple days ago, I thought that the web site wasn't as unqualifiedly critical as RK's citation seemed to imply.
I really fail to see what is dishonest in citing this passage as a reference.
-- Toby
RK wrote:
I have been having a problem with user Fred Bauder on the Chiropractic medicine article, and it has no reached the point of vandalism. He is openly and repeatedly committing academic fraud; i.e. bald-faced lying.
Even if he is doing all of the fraud and lying that you claim, then he is not doing vandalism. Let's not water down our terms. Please see [[Wikipedia:Vandalism]] for what that word means here.
(And if he is doing all of the fraud and lying that you claim, then it really is a problem, even though it's not vandalism.)
-- Toby