I just came across http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Probation_Committee on recent changes and I'm a bit concerned by it. This page was only created about an hour ago and already four users have been appointed (by themselves as far as I can tell) as a board. The page also claims that "The committee is an auxiliary of the Arbitration Committee." Has the ArbCom sanctioned or even heard of this committee before? I think the last thing Wikipedia needs at this point is another committee or more bureaucracy. Carbonite
Never heard of it but it looks like a worthy effort. [[Wikipedia:Probation]] provides that any administrator may enforce probation. There are errors in their setup, for example the notion that a banned users in on probation on their return (Not an arbitration committee idea). I suggest everyone work with this and make the most of it.
Violations of probation may be reported to [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard]] but not every administrator may be ready to deal with someone on probation despite having the authority to do it. A specialized group could help. In fact, demonstrated finesse in dealing with users on probation would make an excellent recommendation for further responsibilities.
It is possible the arbitration committee would consider this group as a resource if it turns out to be well organized and competent.
Fred
On Nov 12, 2005, at 6:02 PM, Carbonite wrote:
I just came across http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Probation_Committee on recent changes and I'm a bit concerned by it. This page was only created about an hour ago and already four users have been appointed (by themselves as far as I can tell) as a board. The page also claims that "The committee is an auxiliary of the Arbitration Committee." Has the ArbCom sanctioned or even heard of this committee before? I think the last thing Wikipedia needs at this point is another committee or more bureaucracy. Carbonite _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
On 11/12/05, Fred Bauder fredbaud@ctelco.net wrote:
Never heard of it but it looks like a worthy effort. [[Wikipedia:Probation]] provides that any administrator may enforce probation. There are errors in their setup, for example the notion that a banned users in on probation on their return (Not an arbitration committee idea). I suggest everyone work with this and make the most of it.
Violations of probation may be reported to [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard]] but not every administrator may be ready to deal with someone on probation despite having the authority to do it. A specialized group could help. In fact, demonstrated finesse in dealing with users on probation would make an excellent recommendation for further responsibilities.
It is possible the arbitration committee would consider this group as a resource if it turns out to be well organized and competent.
It's now been clarified on the talk page that the committee is rather informal right now. It was just very strange to see a committee suddenly appear out of nowhere with a board already chosen and a claim that's they're an auxiliary of the ArbCom (that text is now removed). I guess it was discussed on IRC so it probably wasn't quite as sudden as it seemed. I do see some real potential in this group and wish them the best of luck. Carbonite
On 11/12/05, Carbonite carbonite.wp@gmail.com wrote:
It's now been clarified on the talk page that the committee is rather informal right now. It was just very strange to see a committee suddenly appear out of nowhere with a board already chosen and a claim that's they're an auxiliary of the ArbCom (that text is now removed). I guess it was discussed on IRC so it probably wasn't quite as sudden as it seemed.
It was discussed on IRC, and I was present for some of the discussion. My comment to them at the time was "The ArbCom would obviously be interested in such an activity" or something like that, but I said nothing to indicate that their existence or activities are sanctioned by ArbCom; there is no basis to the claim that they are an "auxiliary" of ArbCom.
I understand that this was partially spurred by the negotiated terms by which the community bans of Jarlaxle Artimis and MARMOT were lifted; to that end these people appear to pursuing a useful goal and should be allowed to do so as long as they do so in a nonharmful way.
Kelly
Do we really need more committees and projects? Couldn't we get by with just a "mentorship" page? This sudden drive to factionalize, make committees, and make small and obscure rules pages ([[Wikipedia:Ivies]] being the most flagrant recent example) is just ridiculous.
-Phil
On Nov 12, 2005, at 9:08 PM, Kelly Martin wrote:
On 11/12/05, Carbonite carbonite.wp@gmail.com wrote:
It's now been clarified on the talk page that the committee is rather informal right now. It was just very strange to see a committee suddenly appear out of nowhere with a board already chosen and a claim that's they're an auxiliary of the ArbCom (that text is now removed). I guess it was discussed on IRC so it probably wasn't quite as sudden as it seemed.
It was discussed on IRC, and I was present for some of the discussion. My comment to them at the time was "The ArbCom would obviously be interested in such an activity" or something like that, but I said nothing to indicate that their existence or activities are sanctioned by ArbCom; there is no basis to the claim that they are an "auxiliary" of ArbCom.
I understand that this was partially spurred by the negotiated terms by which the community bans of Jarlaxle Artimis and MARMOT were lifted; to that end these people appear to pursuing a useful goal and should be allowed to do so as long as they do so in a nonharmful way.
Kelly _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
On 11/12/05, Snowspinner Snowspinner@gmail.com wrote:
Do we really need more committees and projects? Couldn't we get by with just a "mentorship" page? This sudden drive to factionalize, make committees, and make small and obscure rules pages ([[Wikipedia:Ivies]] being the most flagrant recent example) is just ridiculous.
Welcome to Wikipedia High School! (Yes, Wikipedia is starting to turn into a high school, at least from a sociopolitical standpoint.)
Kelly
Kelly Martin wrote:
On 11/12/05, Snowspinner Snowspinner@gmail.com wrote:
Do we really need more committees and projects? Couldn't we get by with just a "mentorship" page? This sudden drive to factionalize, make committees, and make small and obscure rules pages ([[Wikipedia:Ivies]] being the most flagrant recent example) is just ridiculous.
Welcome to Wikipedia High School! (Yes, Wikipedia is starting to turn into a high school, at least from a sociopolitical standpoint.)
Given the number of teenagers present, I am entirely unsurprised...
(Next thing we'll have articles about cheeleading squads and revert wars about which guy at one of the many thousand high schools we have articles on has gotten the most girls, and who's the biggest slut, and who looks fat, and...)
I resent that statement.
I agree with the probation committee being redirected. I also agree that the last thing we need is another committee
On 11/12/05, Alphax (Wikipedia email) alphasigmax@gmail.com wrote:
(Next thing we'll have articles about cheeleading squads and revert wars about which guy at one of the many thousand high schools we have articles on has gotten the most girls, and who's the biggest slut, and who looks fat, and...)
-- Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia "We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
-- ~Ilya N. http://w3stuff.com/ilya/ (My website; DarkLordFoxx Media)
On 11/13/05, Ilya N. ilyanep@gmail.com wrote:
I resent that statement.
I agree with the probation committee being redirected. I also agree that the last thing we need is another committee
They seem pretty harmless. No worse than the informal groups that exist to carry out other admin roles.
-- geni
Ilya N. wrote:
I resent that statement.
I resent your misquoting. Here it is again:
Alphax (Wikipedia email) wrote:
Kelly Martin wrote:
On 11/12/05, Snowspinner Snowspinner@gmail.com wrote:
Do we really need more committees and projects? Couldn't we get by with just a "mentorship" page? This sudden drive to factionalize, make committees, and make small and obscure rules pages ([[Wikipedia:Ivies]] being the most flagrant recent example) is just ridiculous.
Welcome to Wikipedia High School! (Yes, Wikipedia is starting to turn into a high school, at least from a sociopolitical standpoint.)
Given the number of teenagers present, I am entirely unsurprised...
(Next thing we'll have articles about cheeleading squads and revert wars about which guy at one of the many thousand high schools we have articles on has gotten the most girls, and who's the biggest slut, and who looks fat, and...)
I was talking about the high school mentality, thankyou.
I was referring to your statement about that being caused due to the number of teenagers present. I, myself, am a teenager.
But I don't wish to drag the conversation off-topic any further.
On 11/12/05, Alphax (Wikipedia email) alphasigmax@gmail.com wrote:
Ilya N. wrote:
I resent that statement.
I resent your misquoting. Here it is again:
Alphax (Wikipedia email) wrote:
Kelly Martin wrote:
On 11/12/05, Snowspinner Snowspinner@gmail.com wrote:
Do we really need more committees and projects? Couldn't we get by with just a "mentorship" page? This sudden drive to factionalize, make committees, and make small and obscure rules pages ([[Wikipedia:Ivies]] being the most flagrant recent example) is just ridiculous.
Welcome to Wikipedia High School! (Yes, Wikipedia is starting to turn into a high school, at least from a sociopolitical standpoint.)
Given the number of teenagers present, I am entirely unsurprised...
(Next thing we'll have articles about cheeleading squads and revert wars about which guy at one of the many thousand high schools we have articles on has gotten the most girls, and who's the biggest slut, and who looks fat, and...)
I was talking about the high school mentality, thankyou.
-- Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia "We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
-- ~Ilya N. http://w3stuff.com/ilya/ (My website; DarkLordFoxx Media) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ilyanep (on Wikipedia)
On 11/13/05, Snowspinner Snowspinner@gmail.com wrote:
Do we really need more committees and projects? Couldn't we get by with just a "mentorship" page? This sudden drive to factionalize, make committees, and make small and obscure rules pages ([[Wikipedia:Ivies]] being the most flagrant recent example) is just ridiculous.
I concur entirely. Elections for directors, advisory committees, Wikiproject boards -- the elections recently have been endless. I feel that much of the momentum of improving Wikipedia has recently been lost by various users' megalomania and committee-mania. If there was advice given to users about how to do certain things (such as fighting vandalism) and perhaps a list of users to whom questions could be directed, this would save much time and might well also get people down to the real business of writing an encyclopaedia [1].
Sam
[1] I have never written an FA from start to finish.
[[Wikipedia:Probation]] is a new thing and folks we have put on probation and those they interact with don't necessarily know what is involved. For example User:Onefortyone was placed on probation but those who interact with him are upset with what he is doing and are calling for a ban while he, trying to do better, is asking for help from his tormentors. I have listed this case with the new committee in the hope they can help with the situation. As it was they were all hitting on me and my role as an arbitrator makes it impossible for me to do anything for any of them effectively.
Fred
On Nov 12, 2005, at 7:08 PM, Kelly Martin wrote:
On 11/12/05, Carbonite carbonite.wp@gmail.com wrote:
It's now been clarified on the talk page that the committee is rather informal right now. It was just very strange to see a committee suddenly appear out of nowhere with a board already chosen and a claim that's they're an auxiliary of the ArbCom (that text is now removed). I guess it was discussed on IRC so it probably wasn't quite as sudden as it seemed.
It was discussed on IRC, and I was present for some of the discussion. My comment to them at the time was "The ArbCom would obviously be interested in such an activity" or something like that, but I said nothing to indicate that their existence or activities are sanctioned by ArbCom; there is no basis to the claim that they are an "auxiliary" of ArbCom.
I understand that this was partially spurred by the negotiated terms by which the community bans of Jarlaxle Artimis and MARMOT were lifted; to that end these people appear to pursuing a useful goal and should be allowed to do so as long as they do so in a nonharmful way.
Kelly _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Probation can and should be handled on the administrators' noticeboard. Making up a ruritanian committee like this makes probation activities less visible.
For mentorships, I think that insofar as they work well they do so by a very close personal relationship between the mentors and the protege. The mentors have to balance the interests of Wikipedia with the interests of the protege and those of other editors in the community. The mentors in any given instance should be few in number. They have to act with relative autonomy, and committees and whatnot would hamper this.
Earlier activities such as those mentioned further up this thread, and the formation of a password-only channel for discussion, have been reversed. Good.
I think Kelly's comment about Wikipedia becoming a high school rings true, but we don't need to encourage this process.
Carbonite wrote:
I just came across http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Probation_Committee on recent changes and I'm a bit concerned by it. This page was only created about an hour ago and already four users have been appointed (by themselves as far as I can tell) as a board. The page also claims that "The committee is an auxiliary of the Arbitration Committee." Has the ArbCom sanctioned or even heard of this committee before? I think the last thing Wikipedia needs at this point is another committee or more bureaucracy.
Reaing the Talk: page, I must admit I'm a little bothered by the fact this has been set up following a discussion amongst a handful of people on IRC who then decided to arbitrarily set this up without discussion elsewhere such as this mailing list or somewhere on WP itself.
There are enough accusations of major decision-making being made by "secret cabals" already as it is; this is just one more thing to substantiate such suspicians and conspiracy theories.
-a
I see this as people seeing a problem and taking the initiative.
Fred
On Nov 12, 2005, at 6:25 PM, Arkady Rose wrote:
Carbonite wrote:
I just came across http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Probation_Committee on recent changes and I'm a bit concerned by it. This page was only created about an hour ago and already four users have been appointed (by themselves as far as I can tell) as a board. The page also claims that "The committee is an auxiliary of the Arbitration Committee." Has the ArbCom sanctioned or even heard of this committee before? I think the last thing Wikipedia needs at this point is another committee or more bureaucracy.
Reaing the Talk: page, I must admit I'm a little bothered by the fact this has been set up following a discussion amongst a handful of people on IRC who then decided to arbitrarily set this up without discussion elsewhere such as this mailing list or somewhere on WP itself.
There are enough accusations of major decision-making being made by "secret cabals" already as it is; this is just one more thing to substantiate such suspicians and conspiracy theories.
-a _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
I also have difficulties with the current format of the Committee. I am wholly in favour of some kind of probation/mentoring arrangement and a page of people who are prepared to help. I would myself be very happy to take part. However, what has currently been formed is *another* hierarchical committee. Why couldn't it be no more than a list of who is currently prepared to take a probationer on? Why does it have to be cases, and organised in a MC/AC-like fashion that encourages legalism? This could be done more effectively and more friendlyly (is that a word?) if it were done more simply.
Sam
On 11/13/05, Carbonite carbonite.wp@gmail.com wrote:
I just came across http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Probation_Committee on recent changes and I'm a bit concerned by it. This page was only created about an hour ago and already four users have been appointed (by themselves as far as I can tell) as a board. The page also claims that "The committee is an auxiliary of the Arbitration Committee." Has the ArbCom sanctioned or even heard of this committee before? I think the last thing Wikipedia needs at this point is another committee or more bureaucracy. Carbonite _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l