The point is that the number of women editors is far smaller than men. Is this not true, based on the statistics? I am giving some reasons why many capable new contributors may withdraw due to the response they receive from some editors. Every woman is not Molly Ivins and when women leave as contributors process it is because they do not want to suffer the experience a second time once they are made to feel inadequate or not credible or whatever harsh language has been used when their work has been rejected. The community loses many good contributors due to the meanness of the process. I am speaking from the experience of some women students who were not comfortable with the taunting, aggressive response they received if one of their contributions was deleted.
There is no reason for anyone to feel intellectually abused. It is perfectly possible to reject, undo or request changes in a manner that is civil and does not make the contributor feel diminished.
On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 at 7:39 AM, Fred Bauder fredbaud@fairpoint.net wrote:
Everybody here who contributes runs into a brick wall from time to time and has to give up regarding some matter. The factual basis of the theory about gender you're advancing is not established; as everyone experiences the same frustrations.
I've tried to edit certain articles controlled by point of view editors, doggedly advancing good sources while they relied on biased sources and been completely defeated. All it takes is two or three independent and determined point of view pushers and you're done. It does make you want to give up, fork the project, and rant and rave. Molly Ivins would be a good model for women editors. She didn't give up; she raised hell, and made everyone laugh doing it.
Fred
The Wikipedia community fosters a young male zeitgeist.This IS an attitude problem that causes women to drop out. I have been a long time low level contributor and thus have had a variety of response to efforts I have made. Persistence has shown me that what one editor sees as "not credible" may be that particular editor's world view and a contributor--CANNOT, EVER- change the mind of most editors. So one needs to give up on that point, even if you have gone to primary sources and have them on your table in front of you. You have to move on. However, this resigned way of working w/in Wikipedia is not going to be the way that many people approach it. Rebuffed or being called "not credible" will mean we lose many contributors. It should not be on the contributor to understand the editor. Contributors come from all ages and societies. There are far fewer women contributing than men. Why? Women take the harsh rebukes with more hurt. Really.
I am a teacher and suggest that students write for Wikipedia. Invariably the female students have been made to feel stupid by editors and won't go back. The male students are more likely to keep at it. This is the culture that Wikipedia fosters. There are many exceptions….but generally, the tone could be less harsh in dealing with contributors.
==============
On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 11:35 AM, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
On 8 September 2012 15:43, Thomas Morton morton.thomas@googlemail.com wrote:
I haven't had chance to look into this;
That statement invalidates this statement:
Rather than whining about him we need to see the problem; it's an attitude problem HERE.
-d.
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
The point is that the number of women editors is far smaller than men. Is this not true, based on the statistics? I am giving some reasons why many capable new contributors may withdraw due to the response they receive from some editors. Every woman is not Molly Ivins and when women leave as contributors process it is because they do not want to suffer the experience a second time once they are made to feel inadequate or not credible or whatever harsh language has been used when their work has been rejected. The community loses many good contributors due to the meanness of the process. I am speaking from the experience of some women students who were not comfortable with the taunting, aggressive response they received if one of their contributions was deleted.
There is no reason for anyone to feel intellectually abused. It is perfectly possible to reject, undo or request changes in a manner that is civil and does not make the contributor feel diminished.
True, but simply making rules and trying to enforce them strictly does not solve the problem. What is required is development of a community culture of civility, patience, and kindness.
Fred