The Cunctator has begun renaming the articles on slogans to remove the form [[Slogan: . . . ]] which had been used by general agreement. However he argued that no compromise was likely therefore he went and began renaming everything unilaterally. So we need to find some sort of agreement rather than have The Cunctator unilaterally deciding wiki policy. Otherwise we will have endless endless renaming wars.
I propose we use the form [[Slogan: . . . ]] rather than the alternative [[ . . . (slogan)]].
1. Some people complained about how we don't say [[Book: . . . ]] or [[Film: . . . ]] and that therefore putting in slogan was wrong. I disagree. A slogan is by definition POV. Used without qualification, particularly if the slogan is politically controversial, rascist, homophobic, or derogatory to some people's religious, ethnic of cultural origins, can cause offence or appear to be endorsing the POV in the slogan. The use of the word slogan in the title is necessary to distance wiki from the slogan message as it would appear on the list or on google. Doing that would NPOV it by drawing attention to the fact that we are merely repeating a slogan, not expressing one.
2. Putting it in brackets at the end of the line could cause problems if a slogan is long, for the '(slogan)' might not appear on goggle, if the end of a long line was cut off. Instead people simply see a POV slogan coming from wikipedia.
3. Putting '(slogan)' at the end means that people would be greeted with a potentially POV slogan, with which they might have a strong positive or negative reaction - prior to reaching the end of the line (if they see it at all) where it is neutralised by the word slogan. Putting the word slogan in first means that before they even read the slogan they know it is a slogan and is featuring on wiki as a slogan, not POV propaganda. The very first word people read in an article title is the first word. Not everyone reads the full title, particularly if it is a long title. So the key NPOVing word 'slogan' should be where everyone can will and can see it, at the first.
4. Grammatically, having it at the front of the line makes more sense. For example, [[Slogan: AIDS Kills Fags Dead]] in effect reads, 'the slogan: AIDS Kills Fags Dead'. Putting it at the end effectively reads 'AIDS Kills Fags Dead - which is a slogan' As I said above, people may have a very strong reaction to that particular slogan. Using the 'slogan' word upfront NPOVs the statement by contextualising it as a slogan, not an expression of a POV. Put at the end, people may well have had an emotional POV reaction (for or against) before they reach the word slogan at the end, if they even notice it.
5. Using both forms (as The Cunctator seems to want) seems unnecessarily complicated. It makes logical sense to use one standard template, not two because using two (with [[Slogan: . . .]] being used for controversial slogans poses the question: who decides if a slogan is controversial enough? Some people might see a slogan as sufficiently NPOV enough to use '(slogan)' at the end. Others might disagree and the result would be an edit/renaming war. Having one template means that no-one has to form a value judgment on whether it is or is not controversial. If it is a slogan, the one universal format is used.
We do need to have some sort of consensus agreement on this issue set out clearly. The Cunctator has already annoyed people involved in the debate by his unilateral action. It would help the situation enormously if we had clear agreement on the form, which could then be entered as a naming convention to which people could refer, rather than producing constant rows over slogans today, tomorrow, next month, six months down the line, etc.
Any opinions?
JT
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On 3/26/03 3:27 PM, "james duffy" jtdirl@hotmail.com wrote:
The Cunctator has begun renaming the articles on slogans to remove the form [[Slogan: . . . ]] which had been used by general agreement. However he argued that no compromise was likely therefore he went and began renaming everything unilaterally. So we need to find some sort of agreement rather than have The Cunctator unilaterally deciding wiki policy. Otherwise we will have endless endless renaming wars.
I'm quite the unilateralist, aren't I? Anyway, this whole issue is being discussed at [[Talk:Slogan]] without the ad hominem tone; anyone who wants to weigh in on the particulars of the merits of one idea or another should certainly weigh in there. Not to discourage the mailing list, but there's little point in rehashing issues on multiple fora.
Though Jtdirl seems to have made the (dare I say it) unilateral decision that this issue can only be discussed on wikien-l.
He should also note that I have made no attempt to change the AKFD article's current name [[slogan 'AIDS Kills Fags Dead']] even though I think it shouldn't be in that form. I'm waiting until a consensus forms to make any changes (or make no change, as the case may be).
I propose we use the form [[Slogan: . . . ]]
I thought we decided to do [[Slogan '{slogan text}']] so it doesn't confuse people with [[Wikipedia: {something}]] or [[Special: {something}]]. On the naming policy for slogans page, there only is [[... (slogan)]] and [[Slogan ' ... "]]
-- LittleDan
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james duffy wrote:
- Some people complained about how we don't say [[Book: . . . ]] or
[[Film: . . . ]] and that therefore putting in slogan was wrong. I disagree. A slogan is by definition POV.
So if someone writes a novel called "Death to all fags", that's fine as an article title? Hmm.... don't mind me, just playing devil's advocate :-)
The Cunctator has already annoyed people involved in the debate by his unilateral action.
Cunc has been doing stuff like this for a while -- reverting moves of Sep11 casualties after there was a consensus to move them to the memorial wiki.
On Wed, 2003-03-26 at 18:32, tarquin wrote:
james duffy wrote:
The Cunctator has already annoyed people involved in the debate by his unilateral action.
Cunc has been doing stuff like this for a while -- reverting moves of Sep11 casualties after there was a consensus to move them to the memorial wiki.
A consensus in which I had not been involved, and an issue which was handled with equanimity and lack of finger-pointing or blaming by Martin and myself.
The Cunctator wrote:
On Wed, 2003-03-26 at 18:32, tarquin wrote:
james duffy wrote:
The Cunctator has already annoyed people involved in the debate by his unilateral action.
Cunc has been doing stuff like this for a while -- reverting moves of Sep11 casualties after there was a consensus to move them to the memorial wiki.
A consensus in which I had not been involved, and an issue which was handled with equanimity and lack of finger-pointing or blaming by Martin and myself.
Ok, sorry. I shouldn't have dragged it up. Glad to hear the sep11 wiki business is all sorted :-)
And Jimmy, you were saying that Cunctator was excessively interested in consensus? Zoe james duffy jtdirl@hotmail.com wrote: The Cunctator has begun renaming the articles on slogans to remove the form [[Slogan: . . . ]] which had been used by general agreement. However he argued that no compromise was likely therefore he went and began renaming everything unilaterally. So we need to find some sort of agreement rather than have The Cunctator unilaterally deciding wiki policy. Otherwise we will have endless endless renaming wars.
I propose we use the form [[Slogan: . . . ]] rather than the alternative [[ . . . (slogan)]].
1. Some people complained about how we don't say [[Book: . . . ]] or [[Film: . . . ]] and that therefore putting in slogan was wrong. I disagree. A slogan is by definition POV. Used without qualification, particularly if the slogan is politically controversial, rascist, homophobic, or derogatory to some people's religious, ethnic of cultural origins, can cause offence or appear to be endorsing the POV in the slogan. The use of the word slogan in the title is necessary to distance wiki from the slogan message as it would appear on the list or on google. Doing that would NPOV it by drawing attention to the fact that we are merely repeating a slogan, not expressing one.
2. Putting it in brackets at the end of the line could cause problems if a slogan is long, for the '(slogan)' might not appear on goggle, if the end of a long line was cut off. Instead people simply see a POV slogan coming from wikipedia.
3. Putting '(slogan)' at the end means that people would be greeted with a potentially POV slogan, with which they might have a strong positive or negative reaction - prior to reaching the end of the line (if they see it at all) where it is neutralised by the word slogan. Putting the word slogan in first means that before they even read the slogan they know it is a slogan and is featuring on wiki as a slogan, not POV propaganda. The very first word people read in an article title is the first word. Not everyone reads the full title, particularly if it is a long title. So the key NPOVing word 'slogan' should be where everyone can will and can see it, at the first.
4. Grammatically, having it at the front of the line makes more sense. For example, [[Slogan: AIDS Kills Fags Dead]] in effect reads, 'the slogan: AIDS Kills Fags Dead'. Putting it at the end effectively reads 'AIDS Kills Fags Dead - which is a slogan' As I said above, people may have a very strong reaction to that particular slogan. Using the 'slogan' word upfront NPOVs the statement by contextualising it as a slogan, not an expression of a POV. Put at the end, people may well have had an emotional POV reaction (for or against) before they reach the word slogan at the end, if they even notice it.
5. Using both forms (as The Cunctator seems to want) seems unnecessarily complicated. It makes logical sense to use one standard template, not two because using two (with [[Slogan: . . .]] being used for controversial slogans poses the question: who decides if a slogan is controversial enough? Some people might see a slogan as sufficiently NPOV enough to use '(slogan)' at the end. Others might disagree and the result would be an edit/renaming war. Having one template means that no-one has to form a value judgment on whether it is or is not controversial. If it is a slogan, the one universal format is used.
We do need to have some sort of consensus agreement on this issue set out clearly. The Cunctator has already annoyed people involved in the debate by his unilateral action. It would help the situation enormously if we had clear agreement on the form, which could then be entered as a naming convention to which people could refer, rather than producing constant rows over slogans today, tomorrow, next month, six months down the line, etc.
Any opinions?
JT
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I just don't like the usage at all. It's a sneaky way to put dirty stuff on Wikipedia.
Fred
From: "james duffy" jtdirl@hotmail.com Reply-To: wikien-l@wikipedia.org Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 20:27:34 +0000 To: wikien-l@wikipedia.org Subject: [WikiEN-l] Naming conventions - use of the word Slogan to qualify a title
The Cunctator has begun renaming the articles on slogans to remove the form [[Slogan: . . . ]] which had been used by general agreement. However he argued that no compromise was likely therefore he went and began renaming everything unilaterally. So we need to find some sort of agreement rather than have The Cunctator unilaterally deciding wiki policy. Otherwise we will have endless endless renaming wars.
I propose we use the form [[Slogan: . . . ]] rather than the alternative [[ . . . (slogan)]].
- Some people complained about how we don't say [[Book: . . . ]] or [[Film:
- . . . ]] and that therefore putting in slogan was wrong. I disagree. A
slogan is by definition POV. Used without qualification, particularly if the slogan is politically controversial, rascist, homophobic, or derogatory to some people's religious, ethnic of cultural origins, can cause offence or appear to be endorsing the POV in the slogan. The use of the word slogan in the title is necessary to distance wiki from the slogan message as it would appear on the list or on google. Doing that would NPOV it by drawing attention to the fact that we are merely repeating a slogan, not expressing one.
- Putting it in brackets at the end of the line could cause problems if a
slogan is long, for the '(slogan)' might not appear on goggle, if the end of a long line was cut off. Instead people simply see a POV slogan coming from wikipedia.
- Putting '(slogan)' at the end means that people would be greeted with a
potentially POV slogan, with which they might have a strong positive or negative reaction - prior to reaching the end of the line (if they see it at all) where it is neutralised by the word slogan. Putting the word slogan in first means that before they even read the slogan they know it is a slogan and is featuring on wiki as a slogan, not POV propaganda. The very first word people read in an article title is the first word. Not everyone reads the full title, particularly if it is a long title. So the key NPOVing word 'slogan' should be where everyone can will and can see it, at the first.
- Grammatically, having it at the front of the line makes more sense. For
example, [[Slogan: AIDS Kills Fags Dead]] in effect reads, 'the slogan: AIDS Kills Fags Dead'. Putting it at the end effectively reads 'AIDS Kills Fags Dead - which is a slogan' As I said above, people may have a very strong reaction to that particular slogan. Using the 'slogan' word upfront NPOVs the statement by contextualising it as a slogan, not an expression of a POV. Put at the end, people may well have had an emotional POV reaction (for or against) before they reach the word slogan at the end, if they even notice it.
- Using both forms (as The Cunctator seems to want) seems unnecessarily
complicated. It makes logical sense to use one standard template, not two because using two (with [[Slogan: . . .]] being used for controversial slogans poses the question: who decides if a slogan is controversial enough? Some people might see a slogan as sufficiently NPOV enough to use '(slogan)' at the end. Others might disagree and the result would be an edit/renaming war. Having one template means that no-one has to form a value judgment on whether it is or is not controversial. If it is a slogan, the one universal format is used.
We do need to have some sort of consensus agreement on this issue set out clearly. The Cunctator has already annoyed people involved in the debate by his unilateral action. It would help the situation enormously if we had clear agreement on the form, which could then be entered as a naming convention to which people could refer, rather than producing constant rows over slogans today, tomorrow, next month, six months down the line, etc.
Any opinions?
JT
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