Ed Poor and others wrote:
This issue keeps coming up, but the solution is always the same: LET THE ARTICLE SAY THAT X REPORTS Y ABOUT Z.
Mav and others repeatedly claim to agree:
Exactly!
However, I am beginning to question the sincerity of my critics on this issue. The fact remains is that the deleted material *did* do precisely this.
Danny and Zero simply didn't want this information made available. They have an anti-Zionist agenda (which is their right), and they do not want quotes from Palestinian leaders made available at all, if it hurts their political views (which is not their right.) To claim that they don't have anti-Zionist agendas is untenable; they are very clear on these issues.
As for the repeated claim that every single quote was taken out of context, that is just wishful thinking.
First off, please stop misrepresenting the content of the articles. It does _not_ claim that every Palestinian leader says the same thing; it quotes from a variety of leaders, a variety of sources, and provides a variety of views.
Secondly, when someone repeatedy says that they want to destory Israel, and they repeatedly admit that they lied to the Israelies, and that they have no intention of ever having a real peace with them, we are obligated to report these facts. We may not censor these facts and claim that "Those silly Arabs don't really mean what they sa". When we do this, we push am obviously anti-Israeli agenda, and we also infantilize Arabs. We may agree or disagree with them, but let's stop treating them like children incapable of expressing simple thoughts.
There has developed two standards of intellectual integrity among the Wiki-En contributors. One standard is for Arabs, and the other standard is for the rest of the world. This double-standard must end if Wikipedia wants to be taken seriously outside left-wing circles.
Robert (RK)
===== "I prefer a wicked person who knows he is wicked, to a righteous person who knows he is righteous". The Seer of Lublin [Jacob Isaac Ha-Hozeh Mi-Lublin, 1745-1815]
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On 01/10/04 at 06:32 AM, Robert rkscience100@yahoo.com said:
Danny and Zero simply didn't want this information made available. They have an anti-Zionist agenda (which is their right), and they do not want quotes from Palestinian leaders made available at all, if it hurts their political views (which is not their right.) To claim that they don't have anti-Zionist agendas is untenable; they are very clear on these issues.
Sorry Robert, I won't let you get away the defaming these two contributors behind their backs; Danny appears to have left us and Zero doesn't subscribe to this list. Smearing them as "anti-Zionists" is a ludicrous charge; it is as meaningless a term as calling them "anti-American" and simply demonstrates nothing more than the poverty of your argument. You think perhaps Danny and Zero wish for the destruction of Israel??? I challenge you to supply even the fainest shred of evidence that these two think this way. They may be critical of the Israeli government, just like some Americans are critical of the US government, but the problem is that in your ultra-fanatical Zionist worldview that would do the Taliban proud there is no space for even the most minimal criticism of Israel. Unless you come up with more substantial criticisms of Danny and Zero I trust the readers of this list will dismiss your complaints as just more of your tiresome whining.
Secondly, when someone repeatedy says that they want to destory Israel, and they repeatedly admit that they lied to the Israelies, and that they have no intention of ever having a real peace with them, we are obligated to report these facts. We may not censor these facts and claim that "Those silly Arabs don't really mean what they sa". When we do this, we push am obviously anti-Israeli agenda, and we also infantilize Arabs. We may agree or disagree with them, but let's stop treating them like children incapable of expressing simple thoughts.
This is just more of your shameless, ultra-Zionist fantasy as Israel the victim. Has the Israeli government never lied to its people or to Israel's neighbors???
There has developed two standards of intellectual integrity among the Wiki-En contributors. One standard is for Arabs, and the other standard is for the rest of the world. This double-standard must end if Wikipedia wants to be taken seriously outside left-wing circles.
An other wholly unsubstantiated claim without merit that is an insult to the many Wikipedians who have contributed on articles on the Middle East.
V.
Viajero,
Notwithstanding the ridiculousness of RK's charges of anti-Zionism, which I don't think is really the issue here, do you agree with him at least on these central points?
1. That an article "Palestinian views of the peace process" is a legitimate topic of significant importance
and
2. That the article ought to report neutrally on just what Palestinian views are, both the views of the people in general, but also the views as expressed in their own words by prominent Palestinians
All that is necessary to move forward in a productive manner on the article is agreement on those two points. The central point that RK is absolutely right about here is that simply omitting quotes from Arafat and others simply because those quotes show them in an unflattering light is not acceptable.
--Jimbo