Where exactly have you been trying to form this policy by working through the issues? So far all I've you do is rewrite [[Wikipedia:Fair use]], which was on the whole a good thing. (I thought there were a few problems with it...)
Indeed, that was a major area, and there does appear to be some progress there. As you're aware, I've also edited a couple of of the tag templates, and the Wikiproject page. There has also been some discussion on the speedy deletion page.
I could be wrong, but it seems like you've nominated a whole single image for deletion along these lines in the last two weeks. If you think an image is a copyright infringement -- and doesn't qualify for fair use -- why not tag it as such and mark it for deletion?
At present I am more interested in policy matters. I do not believe that I can accomplish anything meaningful by my own extensive use of and involvement in an existing copyvio image process that (a) is far more work for the listing admin than the uploader, (b) takes weeks to reach resolution in uncontroversial cases, and (c) has an excessive inclusion bias for copyvio images with a fair use claim. I'm willing to review images, and list them for deletion, but not until the policy issues are properly addressed. I have had too much Wikistress in the past trying to work to implement things that lacked definition.
You added your name to [[Wikipedia:Wikiproject Fair use]], which has been quite active in rewriting fair use tags (and deleting problematic ones), and is on the cusp of having a workable system for users to label suspicious/disputed/approved fair use claims.
If you'd like to participate in the discussion, please do. There are a number of people who are trying to draw up guidelines and feasible plans. I'm not trying to sound snarky, but you're clearly aware of our project, so I'm taking your complaining to the list as being some sort of indication that you don't think it is in alignment with your goals or thinking.
At present, the project isn't soundly grounded in legal advice. I'm not an attorney so I can't fix that. However I do disagree with the other WikiProject members in several important areas. I believe this is a matter better resolved by competent counsel rather than by compromise and consensus. That is why I have brought it here.
I believe, for example, that we do not accomplish anything meaningful by using low-resolution images and sound clips; consenus appears to be that resolution limits are important. I don't think that discussing or voting on this will help us because it is better settled by sound legal advice. I don't think it is in the best interests of the project to have a bunch of laypeople (non-lawyers) dream up fair use policy.
After some time assessing things, I think a great deal of our fair use images are just fine. The vast majority of them are things like box art and movie posters and are low-res, used appropriately in articles, have no "free" replacements available, and don't deny anybody future profitability.
I am unconvinced of this. Other than the OCILLA safe harbor provisions, I don't think we have a uniformly strong claim. Many of the articles don't have any meaningful critical content, instead merely serving to identify the game or movie or book as the case may be and provide noncritical directory information (credits, year of publication, and so on). I don't know what the case law has to say on that.
I don't believe that our fair use claim is in any way strengthened by the absence of "free" replacements for copyrighted materials.
I believe that publicity photos require no fair use rationale for the reasons I have stated on the appropriate policy page.
I believe that the non-commercial nature of the project should not be a guiding factor in our choice of fair use policy, because of the need to preserve re-use rights for mirrors.
You see it differently, and I understand that, and in most cases I understand your reasoning. Again, compromise and consensus are a poor substitite for counsel in this case, which is why I'm not striving for compromise and consensus.
At the moment we've been mostly concentrating on sorting these sorts of things out so that it's easy to see get to the more problematic cases. These things take time, of course, and the efforts of volunteers -- hence a coordinating project.
The categorization efforts are indeed helpful. It is the policy that concerns me.
On 9/12/05, uninvited@nerstrand.net uninvited@nerstrand.net wrote:
At present I am more interested in policy matters. I do not believe that I can accomplish anything meaningful by my own extensive use of and involvement in an existing copyvio image process that (a) is far more work for the listing admin than the uploader, (b) takes weeks to reach resolution in uncontroversial cases, and (c) has an excessive inclusion bias for copyvio images with a fair use claim. I'm willing to review images, and list them for deletion, but not until the policy issues are properly addressed. I have had too much Wikistress in the past trying to work to implement things that lacked definition.
What I was getting at was the fact that you were specifically complaining about people not wanting to delete anything. I didn't see where the evidence of that was -- if you could throw a link or two my way it would make it easier to see that.
At present, the project isn't soundly grounded in legal advice. I'm not an attorney so I can't fix that. However I do disagree with the other WikiProject members in several important areas. I believe this is a matter better resolved by competent counsel rather than by compromise and consensus. That is why I have brought it here.
I believe, for example, that we do not accomplish anything meaningful by using low-resolution images and sound clips; consenus appears to be that resolution limits are important. I don't think that discussing or voting on this will help us because it is better settled by sound legal advice. I don't think it is in the best interests of the project to have a bunch of laypeople (non-lawyers) dream up fair use policy.
OK. Then don't complain about how you've tried to discuss this and haven't gotten anywhere with it. You haven't tried to discuss it. In the end, the hope is that one of our Wikilawyer types will look over all of the things we've been working on. But they're probably busy too. Better a dreamed up fair use policy based on some understanding of copyright law than no fair use policy at all. I don't think most of our legal understandings are really so baseless -- there is a heap of caselaw on the usage of small or degraded media in regards to fair use -- but then again, hey! I'm not a lawyer, so what the hell do I know. If you want discussion, it's there for you. If you want "just discussion with lawyers" then you'd better find a few lawyers who want to participate. They're welcome to participate too if they want to.
You've named a few miscellaneous issues here, none of which you've bothered raising on the project talk page, or really anywhere else for that matter. So I'm not sure why you're clamoring about your lack of discussion -- it's clear that what you really want is some closure. Which is fine -- wouldn't we all like that? -- but don't make it out like you're being ignored. You are, erm, "invited" to participate in the wiki way.
I'd love it if some legal types would stop by and take a look at what we're up to, give some guidance when it comes down to it. At the moment we're trying to get something basic together, something to work with, and correct the obvious problems of the current policy which have allowed things to get a bit out of control. Which is frankly better than nothing, in my opinion. If your attempts to get unequivocal answers to difficult and murky questions turns up anything useful, please feel free to let the rest of us know. In the meantime, we'll continue our work.
FF
Fastfission wrote:
At present, the project isn't soundly grounded in legal advice. I'm not an attorney so I can't fix that. However I do disagree with the other WikiProject members in several important areas. I believe this is a matter better resolved by competent counsel rather than by compromise and consensus. That is why I have brought it here.
I believe, for example, that we do not accomplish anything meaningful by using low-resolution images and sound clips; consenus appears to be that resolution limits are important. I don't think that discussing or voting on this will help us because it is better settled by sound legal advice. I don't think it is in the best interests of the project to have a bunch of laypeople (non-lawyers) dream up fair use policy.
OK. Then don't complain about how you've tried to discuss this and haven't gotten anywhere with it. You haven't tried to discuss it. In the end, the hope is that one of our Wikilawyer types will look over all of the things we've been working on. But they're probably busy too. Better a dreamed up fair use policy based on some understanding of copyright law than no fair use policy at all. I don't think most of our legal understandings are really so baseless -- there is a heap of caselaw on the usage of small or degraded media in regards to fair use -- but then again, hey! I'm not a lawyer, so what the hell do I know. If you want discussion, it's there for you. If you want "just discussion with lawyers" then you'd better find a few lawyers who want to participate. They're welcome to participate too if they want to.
I'd love it if some legal types would stop by and take a look at what we're up to, give some guidance when it comes down to it. At the moment we're trying to get something basic together, something to work with, and correct the obvious problems of the current policy which have allowed things to get a bit out of control. Which is frankly better than nothing, in my opinion. If your attempts to get unequivocal answers to difficult and murky questions turns up anything useful, please feel free to let the rest of us know. In the meantime, we'll continue our work.
You're essentially correct. If we do nothing until competent legal advice steps up to the plate, we do nothing forever. We could probably spend the entire $200K from the recent fundraising on lawyers and still be no further ahead. Half of that amount could go to those with a conservative attitude toward fair use, and half to those with a more agressive. We would still be left with a decision. Somehow it seems cheaper just to muddle through. At least that way we don't have to spend the money until there is a real case. I suspect that the average lawyer knows very little about copyright law; we may even know more about this specialty. It's probably more cost effective for him to guide his obviously guilty criminal client through a plea bargain. We really shouldn't direct our idolatry towards the lawyers.
To quote you, "Better a dreamed up fair use policy based on some understandingof copyright law than no fair use policy at all." That may be all there is to work with.
Ec