--- "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" jwales@wikia.com wrote:
Just for fun, why don't we have a game on Friday to create an alternative main page, linked from the main page? "Click here to see our April Fool's Page."
I think that is a great idea. :)
-- mav
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:21:42 -0800 (PST), Daniel Mayer maveric149@yahoo.com wrote:
--- "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" jwales@wikia.com wrote:
Just for fun, why don't we have a game on Friday to create an alternative main page, linked from the main page? "Click here to see our April Fool's Page."
I think that is a great idea. :)
-- mav
If this helps convince the critics, I'm all for it. :)
On 3/30/05 4:21 PM, "Daniel Mayer" maveric149@yahoo.com wrote:
--- "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" jwales@wikia.com wrote:
Just for fun, why don't we have a game on Friday to create an alternative main page, linked from the main page? "Click here to see our April Fool's Page."
I think that is a great idea. :)
I think it's profoundly lame.
An April Fool's joke that can't fool anybody is not an April Fool's joke.
Thus the word "fool".
The Cunctator said:
On 3/30/05 4:21 PM, "Daniel Mayer" maveric149@yahoo.com wrote:
--- "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" jwales@wikia.com wrote:
Just for fun, why don't we have a game on Friday to create an alternative main page, linked from the main page? "Click here to see our April Fool's Page."
I think that is a great idea. :)
I think it's profoundly lame.
An April Fool's joke that can't fool anybody is not an April Fool's joke.
Thus the word "fool".
I think there is a definite failure to engage with the subject matter here. Whatever happened to the sweet old idea of just, for one day in the whole year, doing something unexpected, out of character and insincere? Not in a mean, vituperative way, but simply to spread the joy of life. Can't we just put that lovely toilet roll holder on the front page. *once*? Has Wikipedia become so anal?>
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Tony Sidaway wrote:
I think there is a definite failure to engage with the subject matter here. Whatever happened to the sweet old idea of just, for one day in the whole year, doing something unexpected, out of character and insincere? Not in a mean, vituperative way, but simply to spread the joy of life. Can't we just put that lovely toilet roll holder on the front page. *once*? Has Wikipedia become so anal?>
Wikipedia has always been anal. That's why it works.
TBSDY
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:10:53 +0100 (BST), Tony Sidaway minorityreport@bluebottle.com wrote:
The Cunctator said:
On 3/30/05 4:21 PM, "Daniel Mayer" maveric149@yahoo.com wrote:
--- "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" jwales@wikia.com wrote:
Just for fun, why don't we have a game on Friday to create an alternative main page, linked from the main page? "Click here to see our April Fool's Page."
I think that is a great idea. :)
I think it's profoundly lame.
An April Fool's joke that can't fool anybody is not an April Fool's joke.
Thus the word "fool".
I think there is a definite failure to engage with the subject matter here. Whatever happened to the sweet old idea of just, for one day in the whole year, doing something unexpected, out of character and insincere?
you mean like bucking a trend on the net? Everyone will be doing April Fool's for various values of april the first. It is so last century.
Tony Sidaway wrote
Can't we just put that lovely toilet roll holder on the front page. *once*? Has Wikipedia become so anal?
Wipe the thought from your mind. And then paper over the cracks.
Thought: just make [[April Fool's Day]] the featured article.
Charles
Daniel Mayer wrote on 2005/03/30 23:21:
--- "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" jwales@wikia.com wrote:
Just for fun, why don't we have a game on Friday to create an alternative main page, linked from the main page? "Click here to see our April Fool's Page."
I think that is a great idea. :)
-- mav
I think it's a really lame idea. :-( I just joined the mailing list, I hope I'm doing this right. May I ask a question? Do I get any say in whether or not [[User:Bishonen/European toilet paper holder]] is moved out of my userspace into the article namespace for April 1?
Bishonen
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 00:40:46 +0200, Bishonen bishlist@ungoodthinkful.com wrote:
Daniel Mayer wrote on 2005/03/30 23:21:
--- "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" jwales@wikia.com wrote:
Just for fun, why don't we have a game on Friday to create an alternative main page, linked from the main page? "Click here to see our April Fool's Page."
I think that is a great idea. :)
-- mav
I think it's a really lame idea. :-( I just joined the mailing list, I hope I'm doing this right. May I ask a question? Do I get any say in whether or not [[User:Bishonen/European toilet paper holder]] is moved out of my userspace into the article namespace for April 1?
Reading this thread reminds me of the fact that the american dictionary doesn't have an entry for the word irony. Very sad.
Andy Roberts wrote on 2005/03/31 01:25:
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 00:40:46 +0200, Bishonen bishlist@ungoodthinkful.com wrote:
Daniel Mayer wrote on 2005/03/30 23:21:
--- "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" jwales@wikia.com wrote:
Just for fun, why don't we have a game on Friday to create an alternative main page, linked from the main page? "Click here to
see
our April Fool's Page."
I think that is a great idea. :)
-- mav
I think it's a really lame idea. :-( I just joined the mailing list, I
hope
I'm doing this right. May I ask a question? Do I get any say in whether
or
not [[User:Bishonen/European toilet paper holder]] is moved out of my userspace into the article namespace for April 1?
Reading this thread reminds me of the fact that the american dictionary doesn't have an entry for the word irony. Very sad.
-- Andy Roberts
Not getting it, sorry. I know my question came late in the game, but that's because Jimbo's suggestion also came late. I was all for having "European toilet paper holder" featured directly on the Main page on April 1, but I'm all against the page being used in such a poor jape as "Click here to see our April Fool's Page." Please note that this is not a protest against that use, though. It's a *question*, as to whether anybody will care if I do protest. I will only actually do it if the other contributors want me to.
(Sorry if this arrives twice, I'm still getting the hang of posting to the list.)
Bishonen
Bishonen wrote:
Andy Roberts wrote on 2005/03/31 01:25:
Reading this thread reminds me of the fact that the american dictionary doesn't have an entry for the word irony. Very sad.
-- Andy Roberts
Not getting it, sorry.
The joke, if I may spoil it by explaining (now that everyone's probably read it by the time they reach this email in their inboxes) is that American dictionaries _do_ have an entry for the word "irony". Andy just made a silly statement in a totally deadpan manner, and the point of the humor is to have the reader pause for a moment going "wait... is that right? That can't be right. Nah, of course not, that's silly."
I think the point is that this is the sort of joke that is considered "proper" for April Fool's Day, and if that's the point then I quite agree. A link that explicitly says "click here for wacky zany silliness that we made up for April Fool's Day!" spoils the joke before it's even made, IMO, and while I wouldn't object to something like that I'd also be uninterested in contributing to it. An April Fool's article doesn't have to be subtle, take a look at some of the classics like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaghetti_tree for example, but it should at least be played straight.
I sent the message below to the list yesterday, trying to learn if I have any jurisdiction (morally, and by courtesy--I know I haven't legally) over a page in my userspace, namely the ETPH article that has been discussed such a lot on this this list. After all, it's name isn't "European toilet paper holder", it's "User:Bishonen/European toilet paper holder".
I'm disappointed that none of the experienced wikipedians reading this list has addressed my question, but I suppose it was a difficult one. Anybody? See, if the community goes with Jimbo's 1 April Lame-O-Rama" suggestion, I really would like to be able to stop ETPH from being used for it. Input so far on "User talk:Bishonen/European toilet paper holder" shows that other contributors feel the same way.
So, again: anybody? Can/will my userpage be from my userspace untimely ripp'd and used in a way I protest against? Or not? What do you think? Should I hurry up and try to get it speedied?
Bishonen
Daniel Mayer wrote on 2005/03/30 23:21:
--- "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" jwales@wikia.com wrote:
Just for fun, why don't we have a game on Friday to create an alternative main page, linked from the main page? "Click here to see our April Fool's Page."
I think that is a great idea. :)
-- mav
I think it's a really lame idea. :-( I just joined the mailing list, I
hope I'm doing this right. May I ask a question? > Do I get any say in whether or not [[User:Bishonen/European toilet paper holder]] is moved out of my
userspace into the article namespace for April 1?
Bishonen
Wasn't it originally written for April Fools Day? Why are you suddenly objecting against it being used?
-- MacGyverMagic
MacGyverMagic/Mgm wrote on 2005/03/31 11:37:
Wasn't it originally written for April Fools Day? Why are you suddenly objecting against it being used?
Written for April Fool's day? Why, no, not at all. It was written as a joke between friends, for comedic bonding, it's basically a dialogue. That doesn't show in the product, but then it wasn't written for a product but for the writing process itself, the back-and-forth. Modestly, if we had been going for an April 1 hoax page, I think we could have made a funnier one. But the process has been hilarious, for my taste, and surely harmless to wikipedia, or even beneficial. The contributors are all committed and productive editors, and some of us were getting close to burning out on the project. The joking-around cheered us up. The userspace isn't paper.
When there began to *be* a product there, an imperect one, I thought I might nominate it on WP:FAC on April 1. That seemed quite daring--so limited were my horizons! TBSDY preempted the plan by stumbling on the page in February and FAC'ing it on the spot. Proposing it for the Main page for April 1was first done by several people on that FAC vote, not by any of the contributors. But we were quite happy to go along with the idea, and have been promoting it some. I would love to see it used tomorrow, just *not* for some alternative "Click here for how we might have April fool'd you" Main page. That's what I'm objecting to.
Please don't, for that purpose, move it, copy it, link to it, or use it.
Bishonen
Bishonen would love to have his European Toilet Paper Holder article use as a robust April Fools trick. He just doesn't want it wasted on a feeble substitute gesture. (In case you didn't catch that because it was at the end of his message).
Hence the current subject "Lame-O-Rama".
Tom Haws "And [the angel] said unto me: Knowest thou the condescension of God? And I said unto him: I know that he loveth his children; nevertheless, I do not know the meaning of all things."
Snowspinner wrote on 2005/03/31 22:35:
On Mar 31, 2005, at 12:02 PM, Bishonen wrote:
Please don't, for that purpose, move it, copy it, link to it, or use it.
I'm not sure what to point out - no article ownership or the GFDL.
-Snowspinner
I see what you mean, Snowspinner, I apologize for my poor list skills. I understand that I ought to have repeated passages from the messages I posted earlier today, that addressed these concerns before you voiced them (IMO). I was assuming people would have read and would remember what I'd said, but having followed the traffic for a day, I see that that wasn't very realistic. Sorry, I'm new to mailinglists, I only just joined this one, and I'm a bit out of my depth. Here's what I'd said about ownership and the GFDL in the earlier messages, before making that plea for people to leave ETPH in my userspace:
I.
I will only actually do it [[protest against using ETPH for the special
April Fool's page]]
if the other contributors want me to. [[Turns out they do.]]
II.
[I'm] trying to learn if I have any jurisdiction (morally, and by courtesy--I know I haven't legally)
over
a page in my userspace, namely the ETPH article.
[Mav helpfully replied that "morally it would be very rude for somebody to use the text in a way you didn't want since it is clearly marked as being in your userspace."]
Hope that helps, and thank you Tom Haws for assuming good faith. I'm female, btw.
Bishonen
Snowspinner wrote:
On Mar 31, 2005, at 12:02 PM, Bishonen wrote:
Please don't, for that purpose, move it, copy it, link to it, or use it.
I'm not sure what to point out - no article ownership or the GFDL.
-Snowspinner
Uh, wrong. I once moved Netoholic's archive subpages to my own page and got told very quickly by Raul654 that this was not acceptable as what's in Netoholic's user space was really Netoholic's. Fair enough too.
Care to explain how any of that stuff works for User front pages?
TBSDY
csherlock@ljh.com.au wrote:
Snowspinner wrote:
On Mar 31, 2005, at 12:02 PM, Bishonen wrote:
Please don't, for that purpose, move it, copy it, link to it, or use it.
I'm not sure what to point out - no article ownership or the GFDL.
-Snowspinner
Uh, wrong. I once moved Netoholic's archive subpages to my own page and got told very quickly by Raul654 that this was not acceptable as what's in Netoholic's user space was really Netoholic's. Fair enough too.
Care to explain how any of that stuff works for User front pages?
TBSDY
Hang on, isn't the author still the copyright holder? I get the feeling that User space pages are *not* treated as GFDL, but some mix of CC licenses. Many userpages I have seen that say "Thanks to (other user) for the layout of this page". Also, editing another user's User page appears to be seen as vandalism where the 3RR doesn't apply.
On Apr 1, 2005 8:57 PM, Alphax alphasigmax@gmail.com wrote:
Hang on, isn't the author still the copyright holder? I get the feeling that User space pages are *not* treated as GFDL, but some mix of CC licenses. Many userpages I have seen that say "Thanks to (other user) for the layout of this page". Also, editing another user's User page appears to be seen as vandalism where the 3RR doesn't apply.
--
Well, yes. The author retains the copyright of the work. But by placing onto Wikipedia (even the User space), the author is releasing it under the terms of the GFDL. As I understand it, this means that you may still publish the work in another form and give to mention of Wikipedia. However, others may also use the submitted work so long as they meet the requirements of the GFDL.
This applies to anything posted to Wikipedia. You'll see the same notice about the GFDL below the edit box on a User page as anywhere else.
What seems to have at least some degree of consensus is that others should grant people a great deal of control over what they have in their user space. But this is a matter of courtesy, not a matter of copyright or Wikipedia policy (that I am aware of).
Many admins seem to treat unwanted changes to another's user pages as vandalism...and I do not wholly disagree. But I don't know that it follows the letter of the policy.
-- Rich Holton
en.wikipedia:User:Rholton
On Apr 1, 2005 9:54 PM, Richard Holton richholton@gmail.com wrote:
On Apr 1, 2005 8:57 PM, Alphax alphasigmax@gmail.com wrote:
Hang on, isn't the author still the copyright holder? I get the feeling that User space pages are *not* treated as GFDL, but some mix of CC licenses. Many userpages I have seen that say "Thanks to (other user) for the layout of this page". Also, editing another user's User page appears to be seen as vandalism where the 3RR doesn't apply.
--
Well, yes. The author retains the copyright of the work. But by placing onto Wikipedia (even the User space), the author is releasing it under the terms of the GFDL. As I understand it, this means that you may still publish the work in another form and give to mention of Wikipedia. However, others may also use the submitted work so long as they meet the requirements of the GFDL.
This applies to anything posted to Wikipedia. You'll see the same notice about the GFDL below the edit box on a User page as anywhere else.
What seems to have at least some degree of consensus is that others should grant people a great deal of control over what they have in their user space. But this is a matter of courtesy, not a matter of copyright or Wikipedia policy (that I am aware of).
Many admins seem to treat unwanted changes to another's user pages as vandalism...and I do not wholly disagree. But I don't know that it follows the letter of the policy.
-- Rich Holton
en.wikipedia:User:Rholton
To fix my own typo that may be confusing: the second sentence in the first paragraph should read: "As I understand it, this means that you may still publish the work in another form and give no mention of Wikipedia.
-- Rich Holton
en.wikipedia:User:Rholton
Richard Holton (richholton@gmail.com) [050402 13:54]:
This applies to anything posted to Wikipedia. You'll see the same notice about the GFDL below the edit box on a User page as anywhere else. What seems to have at least some degree of consensus is that others should grant people a great deal of control over what they have in their user space. But this is a matter of courtesy, not a matter of copyright or Wikipedia policy (that I am aware of).
There is a general feeling (which the ArbCom tried to put into words) that your userspace is pretty much yours, as long as it's for project-related purposes. You can delete anyone else's changes, remove their comments, revert it as many times a day as you like, etc. Using it as general hosting space isn't considered acceptable (not project-related) nor is using it as a launching pad for personal attacks (against the project). I'm sure there's some elegant and retrospectively obvious wording of it, but I think the idea is reasonably clear for the non-pathological.
Many admins seem to treat unwanted changes to another's user pages as vandalism...and I do not wholly disagree. But I don't know that it follows the letter of the policy.
Simple vandalism is still simple vandalism if it isn't the user themselves doing it. Some people get *really* upset about even a spelling or punctuation correction to their user page, GFDL or not, "edited mercilessly" warning or not.
In this particular case, Bishonen's nihilartikel may be GFDL, but she did ask nicely for it not to be used in certain ways. So it then becomes a consideration of reasonableness and politeness rather than copyright and policy.
- d.