I have noted an increase of discussion on English Wikipedia in languages other than English lately. For now, I'll forgo naming languages and listing particular offenders here.
Do we have a policy on this? Should we?
My opinion is that we should not allow or least sternly frown upon discussion on the English Wikipedia in languages other than English.
Is this racist/anti-nationalist/Anglo-centric? I don't know. I like to consider myself open-minded, but there is something very ominous to me about discussions in foreign languages on the English Wikipedia. Of course, probably the vast majority of such discussions are completely innocuous, but the rest of us have no way of knowing that unless we know what the discussions are about. There is little more frustating that having a conversation (in some cases which is clearly about you) hidden in plain sight.
Of course I am symphathetic to users whose first language is not English and for whom discussing in English may be difficult. However, I am hesitant to extend such sympathy to being permissive of non-English discussion on the English Wikipedia, which is, after all, written in English. In the cases I have seen, the editors who are discussing in a foreign language have demonstrated elsewhere that they are competent writers of English, so it seems especially pernicious when they "lapse" into another language, as though they are hiding something.
The policy question is what to do about users who insist on carrying out discussion on the English Wikipedia in languages other than English. Users who discuss in other languages should be invited to translate their discussion (and remove the discussion in the original language to discourage responses in the original language) or have them removed. We should not remove such discussions summarily, of course, but after a set period of time given to the user to remove their discussion, informing them on their user page, etc.
The policy should not apply to user pages and user talk pages, but non-English discussion on those pages should at least be strongly discouraged. It creates an atmosphere of distrust.
We don't permit articles in foreign languages, so why should we permit discussion in foreign languages?
Please commence with the vilifying of me for being an insensitive Anglo-centric asshole.
- David [[User:Nohat]]
So far I've only seen discussion in other languages in the user namespace. Exactly how common do you think this is?
--Mgm
On 6/13/05, David Friedland david@nohat.net wrote:
I have noted an increase of discussion on English Wikipedia in languages other than English lately. For now, I'll forgo naming languages and listing particular offenders here.
Do we have a policy on this? Should we?
My opinion is that we should not allow or least sternly frown upon discussion on the English Wikipedia in languages other than English.
Is this racist/anti-nationalist/Anglo-centric? I don't know. I like to consider myself open-minded, but there is something very ominous to me about discussions in foreign languages on the English Wikipedia. Of course, probably the vast majority of such discussions are completely innocuous, but the rest of us have no way of knowing that unless we know what the discussions are about. There is little more frustating that having a conversation (in some cases which is clearly about you) hidden in plain sight.
Of course I am symphathetic to users whose first language is not English and for whom discussing in English may be difficult. However, I am hesitant to extend such sympathy to being permissive of non-English discussion on the English Wikipedia, which is, after all, written in English. In the cases I have seen, the editors who are discussing in a foreign language have demonstrated elsewhere that they are competent writers of English, so it seems especially pernicious when they "lapse" into another language, as though they are hiding something.
The policy question is what to do about users who insist on carrying out discussion on the English Wikipedia in languages other than English. Users who discuss in other languages should be invited to translate their discussion (and remove the discussion in the original language to discourage responses in the original language) or have them removed. We should not remove such discussions summarily, of course, but after a set period of time given to the user to remove their discussion, informing them on their user page, etc.
The policy should not apply to user pages and user talk pages, but non-English discussion on those pages should at least be strongly discouraged. It creates an atmosphere of distrust.
We don't permit articles in foreign languages, so why should we permit discussion in foreign languages?
Please commence with the vilifying of me for being an insensitive Anglo-centric asshole.
- David [[User:Nohat]]
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
--- MacGyverMagic/Mgm macgyvermagic@gmail.com wrote:
So far I've only seen discussion in other languages in the user namespace. Exactly how common do you think this is?
--Mgm
It's been happening quite a bit lately on article Talk pages, especially between a certain few Users who are pushing a particular national agenda.
RickK
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On 6/13/05, David Friedland david@nohat.net wrote:
Do we have a policy on this? Should we?
My opinion is that we should not allow or least sternly frown upon discussion on the English Wikipedia in languages other than English.
In general, I disagree with you.
For practical reasons writing in other languages is already 'discouraged' if by no other means than the simple fact that few others will understand it in most places. If anything at all needs to be done, I'd suggest that someone leave a polite reminder that this is the English Wikipedia, most english-first-languagers are notoriously monolingual, and that the peanut gallery would really like a translation. :)
I, for one, have been glad that speaking in foreign languages is permitted, because it is the only way I've been able to work with others when I've made the effort to contribute media I created to non-english wikipedias.
If you're concerned about conspiracy, I'm afraid that the situation is already beyond hope: Those that would wish to hide their conversations from you could do so far more effectively by communicating via private mailing lists or wikis. ... They could even use the 'email this user' feature, unless you suggest that we disable it as well. :)
If you're worried that someone is making fun of you, then end your worries: As you've pointed out, few people can read the material... so you've been releaved of any need to defend yourself.
Gregory Maxwell wrote:
If anything at all needs to be done, I'd suggest that someone leave a polite reminder that this is the English Wikipedia, most english-first-languagers are notoriously monolingual, and that the peanut gallery would really like a translation. :)
Even of those us who didn't learn English as a first language would appreciate a translation, unless it happens to be in our first language, which in my case (modern Greek) it almost never is.
-Mark
Myself a non-native speaker of English, I fully agree that diskussions on en WP should be held in English. However, IMO the policy should not be that posting in other languages than English would be "not allowed or sternly frowned upon". Rather, efforts to write in English should be encouraged. I.e., don't say "don't write in foreign languages". Say "explain what you mean in english, and if you quote sources in other languages please translate. If you find doing so difficult, please try and find someone who can translate for you" and then gently point them to the relevant Babel user category as a means to find people to ask.
I have myself recently translated a quotation in Swedish, used to support a point of view, on an article talk page. I can happily do so again, if someone thinks (s)he has a good source to support his/her opinion but is not brave or confident enough to translate it to English - and finds the matter important enough to take the trouble to go ahead and ask me. If it was not important enough to take the trouble, then (s)he needn't post it.
I hope, though, that I can write a short sentence,like "hi, cool to see you active at the English version as well" in Swedish on a user talk page without offending anyone. (I did once, and got a comment from him that people might not like it.)
/~~~~
On 6/13/05, Delirium delirium@hackish.org wrote:
Gregory Maxwell wrote:
If anything at all needs to be done, I'd suggest that someone leave a polite reminder that this is the English Wikipedia, most english-first-languagers are notoriously monolingual, and that the peanut gallery would really like a translation. :)
Even of those us who didn't learn English as a first language would appreciate a translation, unless it happens to be in our first language, which in my case (modern Greek) it almost never is.
-Mark
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Habj a écrit:
Myself a non-native speaker of English, I fully agree that diskussions on en WP should be held in English. However, IMO the policy should not be that posting in other languages than English would be "not allowed or sternly frowned upon". Rather, efforts to write in English should be encouraged. I.e., don't say "don't write in foreign languages". Say "explain what you mean in english, and if you quote sources in other languages please translate. If you find doing so difficult, please try and find someone who can translate for you" and then gently point them to the relevant Babel user category as a means to find people to ask.
Nod. I think this is a very gentle approach. I like it :-)
ant
Yep, I agree. That's the best approach. Try it the friendly way, before imposing policies.
--Mgm
On 6/13/05, Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
Habj a écrit:
Myself a non-native speaker of English, I fully agree that diskussions on en WP should be held in English. However, IMO the policy should not be that posting in other languages than English would be "not allowed or sternly frowned upon". Rather, efforts to write in English should be encouraged. I.e., don't say "don't write in foreign languages". Say "explain what you mean in english, and if you quote sources in other languages please translate. If you find doing so difficult, please try and find someone who can translate for you" and then gently point them to the relevant Babel user category as a means to find people to ask.
Nod. I think this is a very gentle approach. I like it :-)
ant
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Habj wrote:
Myself a non-native speaker of English, I fully agree that diskussions on en WP should be held in English. However, IMO the policy should not be that posting in other languages than English would be "not allowed or sternly frowned upon". Rather, efforts to write in English should be encouraged. I.e., don't say "don't write in foreign languages". Say "explain what you mean in english, and if you quote sources in other languages please translate. If you find doing so difficult, please try and find someone who can translate for you" and then gently point them to the relevant Babel user category as a means to find people to ask.
I have myself recently translated a quotation in Swedish, used to support a point of view, on an article talk page. I can happily do so again, if someone thinks (s)he has a good source to support his/her opinion but is not brave or confident enough to translate it to English - and finds the matter important enough to take the trouble to go ahead and ask me. If it was not important enough to take the trouble, then (s)he needn't post it.
While it is very helpful to translate sources, one cannot escape the fact that the source was in another language, and if someone is to verify that source it will be in that original language. Translated book or article titles are very unsatisfactory because reversing the translation may not lead to the correct source.
Ec
On 13/06/05, David Friedland david@nohat.net wrote:
I have noted an increase of discussion on English Wikipedia in languages other than English lately. For now, I'll forgo naming languages and listing particular offenders here.
Do we have a policy on this? Should we?
I don't see a need for a policy. It's a wiki, so anyone is free to add translations, or even replace the original text with English.
I regularly leave messages on talk pages and user talk pages in English on the non-English wikis (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussion_MediaWiki:Extlink_sample or http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:PiaCarrot#Administrator for example). Should I be banned from communicated in those places? Or should people assume good faith rather than assuming distrust and simply ask me to find someone to translate it if they feel a need to read those messages?
Angela.
Angela,
I thought about precisely the situation you describe when I composed my original message. Obviously someone who is trying to communicate with users on a wiki that's in a language they don't command should be welcomed in trying to communicate in whatever way they can.
My concern is with users who have demonstrated elsewhere that they have a perfectly adequate command of written English but who deliberately choose to not use English on certain article talk and Wikipedia project pages.
Clearly, legislating against it is not popular here. But I think we should discourage such behavior because it's clearly intentionally exclusionary. There is a point at which good faith can longer be assumed.
For example, let's say a pair of editors repeatedly revert a change I make to an article, then post some messages in a foreign language to the article talk pages as well as to their own user talk pages and the "Xyz Wikipedians' notice board". Some of these messages clearly contain my user name.
How should one respond to something like that? By politely asking that they translate their messages to English?
I'll start by posting machine translations and requesting that they be cleaned up enough to be intelligible. I doubt I'll get very far, though, because these editors are already on a campaign to defame me elsewhere on Wikipedia.
Here's to assuming good faith! :-)
- David
Angela wrote:
On 13/06/05, David Friedland david@nohat.net wrote:
I have noted an increase of discussion on English Wikipedia in languages other than English lately. For now, I'll forgo naming languages and listing particular offenders here.
Do we have a policy on this? Should we?
I don't see a need for a policy. It's a wiki, so anyone is free to add translations, or even replace the original text with English.
I regularly leave messages on talk pages and user talk pages in English on the non-English wikis (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussion_MediaWiki:Extlink_sample or http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:PiaCarrot#Administrator for example). Should I be banned from communicated in those places? Or should people assume good faith rather than assuming distrust and simply ask me to find someone to translate it if they feel a need to read those messages?
Angela.
David Friedland a écrit:
Angela,
I thought about precisely the situation you describe when I composed my original message. Obviously someone who is trying to communicate with users on a wiki that's in a language they don't command should be welcomed in trying to communicate in whatever way they can.
My concern is with users who have demonstrated elsewhere that they have a perfectly adequate command of written English but who deliberately choose to not use English on certain article talk and Wikipedia project pages.
Clearly, legislating against it is not popular here. But I think we should discourage such behavior because it's clearly intentionally exclusionary. There is a point at which good faith can longer be assumed.
For example, let's say a pair of editors repeatedly revert a change I make to an article, then post some messages in a foreign language to the article talk pages as well as to their own user talk pages and the "Xyz Wikipedians' notice board". Some of these messages clearly contain my user name.
How should one respond to something like that? By politely asking that they translate their messages to English?
I'll start by posting machine translations and requesting that they be cleaned up enough to be intelligible. I doubt I'll get very far, though, because these editors are already on a campaign to defame me elsewhere on Wikipedia.
Here's to assuming good faith! :-)
- David
Hi David
But reading your answer to Angela, I feel that you are not so much talking of a general trend, but rather of a couple of very specific situations, which involves yourself. Am I wrong ?
If so, perhaps the issue can be solved by a *rule* but rather by finding someone (in particular of their language) to talk to him/them and see where the problem relies ?
ant
Angela wrote:
On 13/06/05, David Friedland david@nohat.net wrote:
I have noted an increase of discussion on English Wikipedia in languages other than English lately. For now, I'll forgo naming languages and listing particular offenders here.
Do we have a policy on this? Should we?
I don't see a need for a policy. It's a wiki, so anyone is free to add translations, or even replace the original text with English.
I regularly leave messages on talk pages and user talk pages in English on the non-English wikis (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussion_MediaWiki:Extlink_sample or http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:PiaCarrot#Administrator for example). Should I be banned from communicated in those places? Or should people assume good faith rather than assuming distrust and simply ask me to find someone to translate it if they feel a need to read those messages?
Comments in a language that I do not understand absolve me from making responses that I do not understand. :-)
Ec
David Friedland wrote:
My opinion is that we should not allow or least sternly frown upon discussion on the English Wikipedia in languages other than English.
I don't know anything about the specific situation that led you to post this, but in general I quite fiercely disagree with this. What are you trying to accomplish? You can hardly force people to write in English when they don't want to; instead they're just going to discuss things elsewhere or not at all. In all likelihood, it will lead to decreased productivity in the actual articles. You have not added to Wikipedia that way.
In another posting, David Friedland wrote:
a pair of editors repeatedly revert a change I make to an article, then post some messages in a foreign language to the article talk pages as well as to their own user talk pages and the "Xyz Wikipedians' notice board". Some of these messages clearly contain my user name.
Again, I don't know the specific situation, but come on, for all you know these comments could be saying "David Friendland has a good point, what do you all think?".
Timwi