. The problem is not that Muslims are being shot in
airports -- this is not occurring -- the problem is a larger one about perception, about international understanding, about the limits of security states. But all that gets lost when you exaggerate it into some sort of Nazi regime, which it is not. It is not great, but it is something a bit different.
FF
Yes, Muslims are being shot at railway stations actually. However in this case, it was not a Muslim at all, it was a Brazilian man who looked like a Muslim on account of his brown skin. The London Metropolitan Police however assumed that he was a Muslim and shot him dead on the spot. Again the police were acting in the belief that since he (in their judgement) was a Muslim, he was probably carrying a bomb. This event occured shortly after 7/7. As for the "Nazi regime", kindly take the time to observe how U.S Marines in Abu Ghraib are dragging leashed Muslim men around the place like animals, are using attack dogs to torment them, are electrocuting them, and are even going so far as to make them form "naked pyramids". Now these activities are eerily reminiscent of what Nazi S.S Guards did to Jews in concentration camps. Admittedly, the Nazi atrocities occured on a much larger scale but the pain and humiliation suffered by the victims is the same. A U.S spokesperson responded by saying that the atrocities were being looked into-but was quick to add that POWs are "trained to fabricate accounts of abuse"- although that does not explain the photographs of Ms.Lyndde England putting a leash around a naked,cowering Iraqi's neck and dragging him in front of the camera. As to complaints of prisoners at Guatanamo Bay being put through some sort of "sensory deprivation"(again notice the photographs of prisoners being blindfolded,earmuffed,gagged,and face-masked) and other innovative "interrogation techniques" the spokesperson chose to remain silent. So you will forgive me if I draw a few parallels between such atrocities and those committed by the Nazis (albeit,as I said, on a much,much larger scale).
On 12/05/06, Prasad J prasad59@gmail.com wrote:
Yes, Muslims are being shot at railway stations actually. However in this case, it was not a Muslim at all, it was a Brazilian man who looked like a Muslim on account of his brown skin. The London Metropolitan Police however assumed that he was a Muslim and shot him dead on the spot. Again the police were acting in the belief that since he (in their judgement) was a Muslim, he was probably carrying a bomb.
You may be unaware of this detail, but ~3% of the population of the UK is Muslim. If the Metropolitan Police were indeed randomly executing people on the streets purely for being Muslim, then London would be a good bit emptier.
This case is somewhat more complex than you suggest. The day before, London was attacked, two weeks after major bombings. The suicide attacks failed; four people were known to be on the run from police, and there were serious worries that they might attack again.
The places where the attempted attacks took place were combed for evidence; based on something which was found with an address on, a block of flats was staked out. The next morning, Mr Menezes came out of the flats, and was quietly followed by a policeman, while someone tried to identify him from photographs.
At this point, we had the fuckup; someone mistakenly identified him as the suspect. It appears that no-one was actually able to compare him to photographs of the suspect, and was going on verbal descriptions; this part is unclear, because the security services refuse to say anything. But about the time he entered the station, the people on the scene had been told by their control room that he was the man they were after.
They followed him onto the train, there was some shouting, he apparently began moving towards him and they decided he was a threat. And then...
Yes, he was shot because he was mistaken for a Muslim sucide bomber. But he was not shot because the police saw him and thought "hey, a Muslim, open season!". He was not shot because of some grand policy that all Muslims were suicide bombers.
He was shot because the men in front of him had been *told* that he was a probable suicide bomber; they were jumpy, expecting him to try and do something. Then he, tragically, didn't know what was going on and acted in a way that caused them to jump too far.
It was a fuckup; it wasn't helped by the underlying racism the Met has failed to shake off, no doubt*, but it's still a fuckup at heart and it's not, generally speaking, evidence for anything more than that.
*The Met is the only organisation I know of to dismiss someone for sending racist hatemail... in a case where he himself was the recipient. (He won a court appeal)
On May 12, 2006, at 11:39 AM, Andrew Gray wrote:
At this point, we had the fuckup; someone mistakenly identified him as the suspect. It appears that no-one was actually able to compare him to photographs of the suspect, and was going on verbal descriptions; this part is unclear, because the security services refuse to say anything. But about the time he entered the station, the people on the scene had been told by their control room that he was the man they were after.
They followed him onto the train, there was some shouting, he apparently began moving towards him and they decided he was a threat. And then...
Yes, he was shot because he was mistaken for a Muslim sucide bomber. But he was not shot because the police saw him and thought "hey, a Muslim, open season!". He was not shot because of some grand policy that all Muslims were suicide bombers.
He was shot because the men in front of him had been *told* that he was a probable suicide bomber; they were jumpy, expecting him to try and do something. Then he, tragically, didn't know what was going on and acted in a way that caused them to jump too far.
Specifically, he was accosted by armed, plainclothes policemen and panicked. (When I see people wearing civilian clothes coming at me with guns, my first reaction wouldn't be "oh, they must be police!" either.) As I recall, he was tackled to the ground and shot in the head execution style. Any eyewitness would have no reason to believe that police were involved, and would conclude that some sort of awful US-style gang-related murder had taken place.
Police are brutes, counter-terrorism police especially so. In parts of the United States, it's worse--for instance, some police departments have a policy that SWAT teams must serve all search warrants. And let's not even get into our federalized airport security.
This paramilitary approach to law enforcement led directly to the deaths of two innocent people at Ruby Ridge, Idaho in 1993 (the survivor later winning a wrongful death lawsuit against the federal government) while contributing to the tragic end of the Waco standoff that same year. (In contrast, the Montana Freemen standoff of 1996 was resolved successfully by non-paramilitary tactics used by the Montana Highway Patrol. Montana's constitution prohibits law enforcement teams--even federal law enforcement--from entering the state without the permission of the governor or state legislature, so in the Montana Freemen incident, the FBI instead assigned the Montana Highway Patrol to the standoff. It was resolved peacefully and the Montana Highway Patrol billed the FBI for costs later.)
My point is that the institutional culture of police departments became poisoned and needlessly violent as SWAT tactics became prevalent. (Ever notice that SWAT stands for "Special Weapons And Tactics"? The original idea was that acting like paramilitary thugs was necessary in special situations. If you do it all the time it's not so special!) This predates the "War on Terra" and will likely survive it. It's the result of a needlessly poisoned culture among policemen.
On May 12, 2006, at 11:08 AM, Prasad J wrote:
As for the "Nazi regime", kindly take the time to observe how U.S Marines in Abu Ghraib are dragging leashed Muslim men around the place like animals, are using attack dogs to torment them, are electrocuting them, and are even going so far as to make them form "naked pyramids".
That's the Army there, not the Marines.
Now these activities are eerily reminiscent of what Nazi S.S Guards did to Jews in concentration camps. Admittedly, the Nazi atrocities occured on a much larger scale but the pain and humiliation suffered by the victims is the same.
The Nazis attempted to exterminate or enslave everyone of non-German descent living in Europe. It's not even the same thing and it makes you look like a hyperbolic, irrational fanatic for saying so. I don't support the Administration's policies, but the best way to oppose the administration is by making rational arguments against their policies--not by making bad comparisons to the Nazis.
As to complaints of prisoners at Guatanamo Bay being put through some sort of "sensory deprivation"(again notice the photographs of prisoners being blindfolded,earmuffed,gagged,and face-masked) and other innovative "interrogation techniques" the spokesperson chose to remain silent. So you will forgive me if I draw a few parallels between such atrocities and those committed by the Nazis (albeit,as I said, on a much,much larger scale).
Yes, because all the Nazis did was put the Jews into sensory deprivation and ask them questions to try and prevent terrorist attacks.
On 5/12/06, Philip Welch wikipedia@philwelch.net wrote: ....
Yes, because all the Nazis did was put the Jews into sensory deprivation and ask them questions to try and prevent terrorist attacks.
-- Philip L. Welch
Yes, that's such a good analogy, since we all know that all the prisoner deaths were pure unfortunate accidents and completely unrelated to America.
~maru
The last e-mail was supposed to be sent to FastFission as a personal reply to an e-mail he sent me. I mistaken sent it to the mailing-list. Sorry about that.
On May 12, 2006, at 7:56 PM, maru dubshinki wrote:
Yes, because all the Nazis did was put the Jews into sensory deprivation and ask them questions to try and prevent terrorist attacks.
-- Philip L. Welch
Yes, that's such a good analogy, since we all know that all the prisoner deaths were pure unfortunate accidents and completely unrelated to America.
Every time a prisoner is killed in custody, it's analogous to the Holocaust?
There is an immense difference between "using extreme, unethical, and highly violent measures to prevent terrorism" and "trying to exterminate the Jews". I don't support any of the things that have happened with regard to Abu Ghraib and the US prisons for terror suspects. I'm also capable of being a reasonable human being when I explain why.
On 5/12/06, Philip Welch wikipedia@philwelch.net wrote:
Now these activities are eerily reminiscent of what Nazi S.S Guards did to Jews in concentration camps. Admittedly, the Nazi atrocities occured on a much larger scale but the pain and humiliation suffered by the victims is the same.
The Nazis attempted to exterminate or enslave everyone of non-German descent living in Europe. It's not even the same thing and it makes you look like a hyperbolic, irrational fanatic for saying so. I don't support the Administration's policies, but the best way to oppose the administration is by making rational arguments against their policies--not by making bad comparisons to the Nazis.
Either way, comparisons have been made to Nazis. You know the rule.
Steve
I had sent Prasad a few e-mails trying to encourage him that exaggerating wildly undercut his message more than it did help it, and was trying to keep it off-list since it has nothing to do with Wikipedia at all. In any case, I apologize for this getting dragged back in.
Prasad, again, I do not support most of the policies of the United States towards terrorism (and certainly do not support racial or religious stereotyping, coercive interrogation techniques, rendition, illegal wire-tapping, etc.), but I think you exaggerate the situation in a way which makes the critical view into a caricature -- an easy straw man for people to knock down. My goal was not so much to try and engage in a long discussion over this, but only to suggest that the sober truth hits harder than does hysterical hyperbole. You are free to ignore this, of course, as you no doubt will.
FF
On 5/12/06, Prasad J prasad59@gmail.com wrote:
. The problem is not that Muslims are being shot in
airports -- this is not occurring -- the problem is a larger one about perception, about international understanding, about the limits of security states. But all that gets lost when you exaggerate it into some sort of Nazi regime, which it is not. It is not great, but it is something a bit different.
FF
Yes, Muslims are being shot at railway stations actually. However in this case, it was not a Muslim at all, it was a Brazilian man who looked like a Muslim on account of his brown skin. The London Metropolitan Police however assumed that he was a Muslim and shot him dead on the spot. Again the police were acting in the belief that since he (in their judgement) was a Muslim, he was probably carrying a bomb. This event occured shortly after 7/7. As for the "Nazi regime", kindly take the time to observe how U.S Marines in Abu Ghraib are dragging leashed Muslim men around the place like animals, are using attack dogs to torment them, are electrocuting them, and are even going so far as to make them form "naked pyramids". Now these activities are eerily reminiscent of what Nazi S.S Guards did to Jews in concentration camps. Admittedly, the Nazi atrocities occured on a much larger scale but the pain and humiliation suffered by the victims is the same. A U.S spokesperson responded by saying that the atrocities were being looked into-but was quick to add that POWs are "trained to fabricate accounts of abuse"- although that does not explain the photographs of Ms.Lyndde England putting a leash around a naked,cowering Iraqi's neck and dragging him in front of the camera. As to complaints of prisoners at Guatanamo Bay being put through some sort of "sensory deprivation"(again notice the photographs of prisoners being blindfolded,earmuffed,gagged,and face-masked) and other innovative "interrogation techniques" the spokesperson chose to remain silent. So you will forgive me if I draw a few parallels between such atrocities and those committed by the Nazis (albeit,as I said, on a much,much larger scale). _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l