OK, let me see if I can do this without making things worse...

At 07:40 PM 8/29/2003, you wrote:

A very sick man has now created a dozen Wikipedia pages dedicated to abusing me. (Yes, I know I previously said that EntmootsOfTrolls had created six, but his latest list is much longer. He is still creating more, even though that is hard to believe.)

It's not hard to believe, he obviously has something against you.

Yet your communal response? Anthere starts attacking me, and James Duffy starts ranting about "the boy who cried wolf", and denies that serious amounts of Jew baitiing exists - in the midst of some of the most serious anti-Semitic slander Wikipedia has seen.

Well, you seem to have missed the people in the community calling for EoT being banned. You also may have missed the point of James' message which was not that Jew-baiting does not exist, but that he was concerned that your frequent (not just in this instance) accusations of anti-semitism may cloud the issue when actual anti-semitism does rear its ugly head.

Entmoots non-stop talk about Jews, Zionpedia, questining me about hwo I follow Leviticus, claiming that I am not a Jew, and whining about how Zionists control this place is a very clear thing: This is anti-Semitic harassment. For someone to look at this and deny it is a sign that they ar stupid...or anti-Semitic themselves.

I don't really understand your logic here. EoT is not obsessed with Jews. He's obsessed with YOU. I don't see why you can't understand how a person who isn't an anti-semite or an idiot could have the opinion that EoT's remarks (while facially anti-semitic, obviously) aren't ABOUT being anti-semitic, but are ABOUT pissing you off. Now, I'm not condoning them, in fact, I think he's gone so far that he's reached the level of bannable offenses. But I don't appreciate your sweeping generalizations about anyone who disagrees with you. I don't see how that helps anything.

Would we allow similar statements about women, gays, blacks, Hispanics, etc? Nope.

And right now Stevertigo slanders most Wikipedians as "philo Semites"...and in response some people do nothing, yet only respond that I am lying or imagining things when I object to the blatant anti-Semitic Jew-baiting?

Stevertigo did absolutely nothing of the sort. Read his original post, Vicki's response, and then Stevertigo's reply to her response. The reason people did nothing is that nothing untowards happened. He was talking about the attitude that some people have, not about his opinion or about any specific Wikipedians. I don't think you're maliciously being misleading here, I just think that in your frustration you may be not reading text as closely as you ought.

Huh? If that action on your part isn't Jew-baiting itself, then nothing is.

Stevertigo and EntmootsOfTrolls are the ones making the most outrageous attacks. However, they are only a few people, out of thousands of Wikipedia. It is not them I am worrying about. Rather, it is the rest of you self-who don't see a problem with this that I am worried about.

Well, you should be worried about the ones making the attacks (although I'm not really aware of what Stevertigo has done). Let me be blunt, RK, many people on Wikipedia don't like you. Lest you take that the wrong way, it has nothing to do either with your status as a Jewish person or your position on anti-semitism. It has to do with your attitude towards fellow Wikipedians and your general demeanor. Perhaps there are people who "don't see a problem" because they know that EoT isn't trying to attack Jews, just you. If they don't like you, they may not have a problem with that. But then, I'm not qualified to go judging peoples' reasons for things.

If I wrote that your tolerance of writing about black subjects makes you "nigger lovers", isn't that racist, and grounds for an immediate ban? Sure. But when people like Stvertigo and EntmootsOfTrolls write things exactly like this about the Jews, you blame the victim, deny that anti-Semitism exists, slander me, and then refuse to ban trolls. That's either hypocritical (at best) or a tacit admission that deep down inside you really don't have a problem anti-Semitism.

RK, you are really starting to go far afield here. I've already dealt with your mistaken opinion of Stevertigo's email above, but let me add something else.Trolls get banned all the time. EoT will probably be banned soon. Screaming about how nobody is doing anything except blaming you (which isn't true, by the way) DOES NOTHING TO HELP THE SITUATION.

I challenge you to back up your assertion above. Show us all where we deny that anti-semitism exists. RK, you gain nothing but more enmity when you cast invective on countless Wikipedians who do not deserve it.

And on a related topic, EntmootsOfTrolls has also created a dozen Wikipedia article dedicated to harassment, has done things that would get a dozen other users banned immediately, but narly all of you are still protecting him.

Your tacit acceptance of harassment is shameful, and a violation of everything this project stands for.

I had almost forgotten about this until now. Your repeated use of "shame" really isn't wise. It's a loaded word that is bound to generate nothing but defensiveness from those you wish to help you. Not for nothing, RK, but IMHO it is highly inappropriate for you to dictate to others what they should or should not be ashamed about. All of us have consciences and most of us act as dictated by our consciences. The fact that, despite numerous attempts to illucidate the situation to you, you CONTINUE to insist that everyone is against you and that it's all because of some vast anti-semitic conspiracy (conspiracy here is my word, not yours, but I feel that's what you're implying) is really unfortunate.

It seems that you are not willing to pay attention to all the information that is available, but instead choose to "cherry-pick" in order to support your chosen position. If I were you, I might call that "shameful".

Please stop writing posts about how good and tolerant you all are, and about how the only problem is that I "am crying wolf". Coming from people who are blind to anti-Semitism in a very blatant form, I just can't take your words seriously at all.

Here is what puzzles me most. If you truly think all these things about all of us, why are you here? Why write a letter and then close with the assertion that our words are meaningless to you? And, lest you take the above as a veiled request for you to leave, it's not. I'm just confused. I trust that, since you're still here, you believe that there is something good and useful in this community and project. I just can't reconcile that with your words above. RK, you are digging yourself a very deep hole out of which I'm not sure you'll be able to climb.

RK, whether people like you or not is really irrelevant. It seems that most of us are, at the very least, willing to accept you. That should be enough. And, quite frankly, you HAVE cried wolf in the past. How long ago was it that you thought that JT was an anti-semite and had to publicly apologize because you decided you were mistaken? Have you changed your mind again? Is he an anti-semite again? THIS is what is meant by crying wolf. You cannot just accuse people (who may have honest disagreements with you) of being anti-semites just because you don't like their position and then expect people to care. I'm sure that there are people who haven't even bothered to look up the history of you and EoT because they assume that it's a bogus argument because of all your false claims in the past.

In closing, please don't take anything I've said as an attack, it REALLY hasn't been intended that way. What I'm trying (let's hope it succeeded) to do is show you how other people may be thinking of the situation. I really believe that if you can calm down long enough to open yourself up to other peoples' viewpoints, not everyone may seem quite so very much against you.

For what it's worth, I hope you stay and continue contributing positively to the 'pedia, and that harassment of all users by all other users could be stopped promptly and effectively in the future.

----- Dante Alighieri dalighieri@digitalgrapefruit.com

"The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of great moral crisis." -Dante Alighieri, 1265-1321

on 8/29/03 8:40 PM, Robert at rkscience100@yahoo.com wrote:

Coming from people who are blind to anti-Semitism in a very blatant form, I just can't take your words seriously at all.

Robert (RK)

Wrong, Robert, we do the best we can.

Fred

RK wrote in part:

And right now Stevertigo slanders most Wikipedians as "philo Semites"...and in response some people do nothing, yet only respond that I am lying or imagining things when I object to the blatant anti-Semitic Jew-baiting?

Huh? If that action on your part isn't Jew-baiting itself, then nothing is.

That seems to be the conclusion that a lot of people here have drawn.

-- Toby