Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote:
At 05:25 AM 3/6/2010, Charles Matthews wrote:
Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote:
Wikipedia painted itself into this corner.
Indeed, said corner being #5 website in the world according to recent Comscore figures. The onus is still on those who think the system is broken.
Onus? No, I'm seeing masses of highly experienced editors leaving the project, with those replacing them being relatively clueless, as to the original vision, which was itself brilliant but incomplete. The biggest problem with the system is massive inefficiency, with huge amounts of editor labor necessary to make decisions and maintain them, long-term. A secondary problem is that the process does not reliably seek consensus, which is an essential element in the estimation of the degree of neutrality obtained. And the massive inefficiency compounds this problem. You can sail on, believing that it's working just fine. And, I suppose, you can believe that all the admins who have left, or who maintain comments that it's broken, are just, what? Sour grapes?
There is a lot of criticism out there that is obviously ignorant. But that's not all there is.
Yes, there is also stuff that is plainly directed against the project, from some of WR to the WSJ's reiteration of the discredited Ortega statistics (see the most recent Signpost). It doesn't take too much to distinguish legitimate beefs from troll-talk.
Some of us who have been around for a while might think that a smaller, better-trained workforce could possibly get on faster with constructive work. It seems well-established that the big influx of 2006-7 has now sorted itself out into those who have learned the system and are supporting it substantially, and those who have moved on (fnding tweets more to their attention span, whatever). People do come and go anyway on a big site. But we were talking about notability.
("Notability" has always been a broken concept, but the real question is whether the system as a whole is broken, rather than whether individual subjective judgements always agree with the result of deletion processes.)
The system is broken. It's obvious. But almost all of those who recognize this also believe that it's impossible to fix, and so they either leave in despair or they struggle on for a while. I'm unusual. I know it's broken, and I know why, and I know how to fix it. And what I'd suggest would take almost no effort. And it's been opposed at every turn, attempts were made to delete and salt a small piece of the proposal, years ago, a very modest experiment that would have changed no policy or guideline.
I agree with "unusual" - the jury seems still to be out on the rest.
What I'd propose is very simple, but it happens that it's also very difficult to understand without background; I happen to have the background. Few Wikipedia editors do. I could be wrong, but what I've seen is that the *very idea* arouses very strong reactions. Based on ... what? I could say, but it's really not up to me. I can do nothing by myself except set up structures that people can use or not.
I proposed a change to the guideline, a special provision, that *generally* a recognized national member society of a notable international society would be notable. If you know the notability debates, you can anticipate the objections. "Notability is not inherited."
Indeed, it isn't.
Not normally. DGG has already addressed the substance. What's happening is that guidelines are being interpreted as fixed rules, instead of as ways of documenting how the community operates. If documentation of actual decision-making is pursued, then inconsistencies can be directly addressed, and can produce more refined -- and more accurate -- guidelines. This build-up of experience, documented, is what's normal with structures like that of Wikipedia, if they are to remain sustainable. That this is actively blocked, that attempts to document actual practice are strongly resisted, is part of the problem. "Instruction creep." But that assumes that the guidelines are fixed rules, not simply documentation that can be read to understand how the community is likely to decide on an issue.
Some of the more high-profile associated topics of notable topic X can be mentioned in the article on X, but that doesn't mean they are all worth a separate article.
Where does the decision get made? There is notable topic, amateur radio. There is an international organization which reocognizes national societies, one per nation. It's the IARU, in the situation being discussed. It intrinsically creates 200 possible subtopics, organized by nation, by the nature of the situation. Each one of these *probably* has reliable sources that would justify a separate article, given a deep enough search, but suppose there were a couple of exceptions. If we start valuing editor time, a major oversight in the development of project structure, we might say that if, in almost all cases, with adequate work, we could find reliable sources for 190 articles, we mighg as well treat all these subtopics identically. Is there any harm to the project from this?
But where does the decision get made? Is it possible to make a global decision as I'm suggesting? I.e., in *this* situation, we will give each national member society an article, as a stub, based on "national scope" and "IARU recognition," with the IARU web site as the source. Is it reliable for the purpose of determining that the national member society is notable? What I see here is that those who argue guidelines as an abstraction are saying "No," and they give reasons that are abstract. But those who know the field, uniformly, are saying, "Yes," and they seem to be bringing neutral editors along with them, and closing admins who have nothing to do with the topic. Does, in fact, actual community practice trump the guidelines? What I'm seeing from Mr. Matthews is an argument, that, no, the guidelines should prevail, and we should not change the guidelines to reflect actual practice.
I'm certainly not saying that, and it doesn't represent my view. I didn't understand what you were saying so well, at first. Proposals to create nearly 200 stubs in an area on the assurance that they are probably verifiable somehow falls under a different general heading, the creation of a "walled garden" of material where ordinary editors are basically told to keep out. Walled gardens are no good when "editors assumed to know" are in charge of the content. Some better approach needs to be negotiated, allowing at least some informal guidelines to emerge. (Example: which scholastic philosophers to include? We tend to go by the contents of academic works of reference as at least a sensible approach.)
Charles
At 04:34 AM 3/7/2010, Charles Matthews wrote:
Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote: What I'm seeing from
Mr. Matthews is an argument, that, no, the guidelines should prevail, and we should not change the guidelines to reflect actual practice.
I'm certainly not saying that, and it doesn't represent my view. I didn't understand what you were saying so well, at first.
Thanks for noticing and acknowledging that. It helps.
Proposals to create nearly 200 stubs in an area on the assurance that they are probably verifiable somehow falls under a different general heading, the creation of a "walled garden" of material where ordinary editors are basically told to keep out.
Well, not exactly. But because the standard set up by the decision about the assurance is simple and applicable to all 200 articles, it would become difficult to AfD them. And it should be difficult, except in one way. If one disagrees with the standard, discuss the standard. Consensus can change. But individually AfDing the articles, making a claim that has been repeatedly rejected, no, that's not okay.
Making that global decision on notability, which would apply only specifically to the specific international organization and its members, and only by extension and individual decision to many more international organizations of similar nature, simply allows results to become predictable without writing them in stone.
Nothing about this would prevent "ordinary editors" from working on the articles.
Walled gardens are no good when "editors assumed to know" are in charge of the content.
That's correct. But this was not the issue here.
Some better approach needs to be negotiated, allowing at least some informal guidelines to emerge.
Yes, exactly. Documenting actual practice, without presuming that this is binding. It's actually the Wikipedia way, but it's being lost (because it's presumed that guidelines are binding, that became obvious in this affair, and then, if they are binding, they must be written authoritatively and prescriptively, which then can make them impossible to manage, editing them becomes highly contentious, with decisions being made by the few who care to deal with those pages.... On the other hand, that some kind of result happened and was sustained isn't deniable. Until and unless it changes and that is sustained.
(Example: which scholastic philosophers to include? We tend to go by the contents of academic works of reference as at least a sensible approach.)
That's right. It's posible to decide, for example, that all philosophers listed in some authoritative reference are notable, ipso facto. That doesn't mean that no others are notable, but it does mean that far less time might be spent demanding sources or the article will be deleted. Someone, instead, who sees unsourced material might tag it, or, later, remove it, but the article doesn't then get deleted. The listing in the authoritative source would remain, as a minimum.
Another example I'd propose, without insisting on it, particularly (i.e., maybe it's a bad idea, it's just being proposed as something that could be considered), it's a case I ran across when I started looking at abusive blacklistings. Lyrikline.org is a German poetry site with the support of the German government; it's quite notable. It has a review process by which it decides what poets to host, and it hosts a biography, some poetry, and audio of the poet reading. It would be possible to determine, as an example, that all poets with lyrikline.org pages were, ipso facto, notable. As I recall, we might gain several hundred poet stubs, fairly easily. (The poets are from all over the world.)
Why would this indicate notability? Well, the decision that is being made there is whether or not the poet is notable! And that decision is being made by those knowledgeable in the field. It's probably a sounder decision than one made by the general Wikipedia editorship. By adopting it, we could avoid a lot of unnecessary dispute.