Mailing lists are just so inefficient.... why not just have a forum? At least this mailing list has a virtual forum.
http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/
Also, I don't seem to get very good feedback here.... I guess I'll just have to post some more on the talk pages, even though people with no knowledge of copyright law will complain. Tough!
© 2005, Pioneer-12
p.s. I have been banned unfairly and no one has even bothered to ADDRESS that in a MONTH. <sarcasm> Way to go, Wikipedia! Good job treating volunteer editors who are simply standing up for their rights like criminals. </sarcasm>
If you are prepared to accept the rules of Wikipedia, then I have no doubt that you will be allowed back to edit. As it is, you were creating a worrying copyright problem, something that would be bet avoided.
After all, what problem does it give you to put your comments under the GFDL? They still must be attributed to you.
Sam
On 6/23/05, thomas-edison @ ziplip. com thomas-edison@ziplip.com wrote:
Mailing lists are just so inefficient.... why not just have a forum? At least this mailing list has a virtual forum.
http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/
Also, I don't seem to get very good feedback here.... I guess I'll just have to post some more on the talk pages, even though people with no knowledge of copyright law will complain. Tough!
(c) 2005, Pioneer-12
p.s. I have been banned unfairly and no one has even bothered to ADDRESS that in a MONTH. <sarcasm> Way to go, Wikipedia! Good job treating volunteer editors who are simply standing up for their rights like criminals.
</sarcasm>
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
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Sam Korn wrote:
If you are prepared to accept the rules of Wikipedia, then I have no doubt that you will be allowed back to edit. As it is, you were creating a worrying copyright problem, something that would be bet avoided.
After all, what problem does it give you to put your comments under the GFDL? They still must be attributed to you.
Sam
On 6/23/05, thomas-edison @ ziplip. com thomas-edison@ziplip.com wrote:
Mailing lists are just so inefficient.... why not just have a forum? At least this mailing list has a virtual forum.
http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/
Also, I don't seem to get very good feedback here.... I guess I'll just have to post some more on the talk pages, even though people with no knowledge of copyright law will complain. Tough!
(c) 2005, Pioneer-12
p.s. I have been banned unfairly and no one has even bothered to ADDRESS that in a MONTH. <sarcasm> Way to go, Wikipedia! Good job treating volunteer editors who are simply standing up for their rights like criminals.
</sarcasm>
More than just attributed - any modification of them must be attributed to both you and whoever modified them. If you're worried about your comments being mangled, don't be. Or, PGP sign every comment you make, and then we can tell they haven't been altered :)
- -- Alphax OpenPGP key: 0xF874C613 - http://tinyurl.com/cc9up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S. Lewis
On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 04:43:37AM -0700, thomas-edison@ziplip.com wrote:
Mailing lists are just so inefficient.... why not just have a forum?
Mailing lists (and newsgroups) have some real advantages over Web forums.
First off, everyone gets to choose what software they want to use to read mail in, whereas a Web forum means that everyone has to use the same software (namely, the forum software itself) even if it doesn't fit their needs. If you want to read a mailing list in a Web browser, you can use the Web archives (as you linked) or use a Webmail system such as Gmail. But those of us who want to read the list in a dedicated mail client like mutt or Thunderbird can do that too. We can apply spam-filters to the list traffic to block out an unwanted thread if we like. We can get digest mode. We can use a real text editor to compose messages, not a browser TEXTAREA widget. So a mailing list offers more choices.
Second, most Web forum software has *remarkably poor* support for a lot of really basic discussion features, such as threading, quoting, and catching-up. Considering that the idea of threaded online discussions has been around for a couple of decades now (Usenet is 25 this year), you'd think that someone who was going to implement it anew would learn from (say) mail clients and Usenet newsreader software? But no, not particularly. Most forum software groups messages into "topics", not threads -- distinguished by the fact that a "topic" has a single root message and doesn't fork. Real discussions, of course, *do* fork, so Web forums poorly model the behavior of their users. Moreover, "topics" get unwieldy after 50 or so messages, leading forum administrators to pound on their users to "start a new topic" because the old one is "full". Huh? A thread doesn't get full.
Also, how is it that Web forum software such as phpBB and DCForum can get so popular without having something as basic as a feature to reliably catch up on unread messages, or to view messages sorted by different criteria? Sure, there's usually a feature to see which topics *have* unread messages, but when there's a dozen topics each of 100+ posts, catching up across the whole forum is slow and irritating. In contrast, every mail client in the world can tell you which messages you've read and which you haven't -- and many can distinguish "message that has been presented to you in the message list, but you never actually looked at" from "message that you have never seen at all before".
On 6/23/05, Karl A. Krueger kkrueger@whoi.edu wrote:
On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 04:43:37AM -0700, thomas-edison@ziplip.com wrote:
Mailing lists are just so inefficient.... why not just have a forum?
Mailing lists (and newsgroups) have some real advantages over Web forums.
First off, everyone gets to choose what software they want to use to read mail in, whereas a Web forum means that everyone has to use the same software (namely, the forum software itself) even if it doesn't fit their needs. If you want to read a mailing list in a Web browser, you can use the Web archives (as you linked) or use a Webmail system such as Gmail. But those of us who want to read the list in a dedicated mail client like mutt or Thunderbird can do that too. We can apply spam-filters to the list traffic to block out an unwanted thread if we like. We can get digest mode. We can use a real text editor to compose messages, not a browser TEXTAREA widget. So a mailing list offers more choices.
Second, most Web forum software has *remarkably poor* support for a lot of really basic discussion features, such as threading, quoting, and catching-up. Considering that the idea of threaded online discussions has been around for a couple of decades now (Usenet is 25 this year), you'd think that someone who was going to implement it anew would learn from (say) mail clients and Usenet newsreader software? But no, not particularly. Most forum software groups messages into "topics", not threads -- distinguished by the fact that a "topic" has a single root message and doesn't fork. Real discussions, of course, *do* fork, so Web forums poorly model the behavior of their users. Moreover, "topics" get unwieldy after 50 or so messages, leading forum administrators to pound on their users to "start a new topic" because the old one is "full". Huh? A thread doesn't get full.
Also, how is it that Web forum software such as phpBB and DCForum can get so popular without having something as basic as a feature to reliably catch up on unread messages, or to view messages sorted by different criteria? Sure, there's usually a feature to see which topics *have* unread messages, but when there's a dozen topics each of 100+ posts, catching up across the whole forum is slow and irritating. In contrast, every mail client in the world can tell you which messages you've read and which you haven't -- and many can distinguish "message that has been presented to you in the message list, but you never actually looked at" from "message that you have never seen at all before".
-- Karl A. Krueger kkrueger@whoi.edu
For once, this is on-topic. I would recommend Gmail for mailing lists. Personally, I like keeping WikiEN and other reasonably high-volume mailing lists away from my primary email account.
Also, the threading, while not perfect, is great for a web based system, and the automatic/user-controlled collapsing/expansion of quoted text is fantastic. Ditto for read messages in the thread - all available while reading the most recent messages.
One never has to worry about deleting messages or unwanted threads either (it's no harm to just leave it - as you'll never run out of space!) Also the search facility is very prompt compared to in-client searching of downloaded mail.
I found it to be a good way of experiencing Gmail whilst not wanting to use Gmail for my personal mail.
Zoney
I second this. Gmail does a great job of putting messages in similar threads together as well, which makes it almost like an online forum. I have a little flag which goes up anytime there is a thread I've written on, so I can see if there are replies, etc.
I don't know if it is still "invite only" but if so, if anybody doesn't have one (or wants another) feel free to write to me personally (off list) and I'll send you an "invite" -- I've got 50 or so of them (as probably everybody with a gmail account).
FF
On 6/23/05, Zoney zoney.ie@gmail.com wrote:
On 6/23/05, Karl A. Krueger kkrueger@whoi.edu wrote:
On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 04:43:37AM -0700, thomas-edison@ziplip.com wrote:
Mailing lists are just so inefficient.... why not just have a forum?
Mailing lists (and newsgroups) have some real advantages over Web forums.
First off, everyone gets to choose what software they want to use to read mail in, whereas a Web forum means that everyone has to use the same software (namely, the forum software itself) even if it doesn't fit their needs. If you want to read a mailing list in a Web browser, you can use the Web archives (as you linked) or use a Webmail system such as Gmail. But those of us who want to read the list in a dedicated mail client like mutt or Thunderbird can do that too. We can apply spam-filters to the list traffic to block out an unwanted thread if we like. We can get digest mode. We can use a real text editor to compose messages, not a browser TEXTAREA widget. So a mailing list offers more choices.
Second, most Web forum software has *remarkably poor* support for a lot of really basic discussion features, such as threading, quoting, and catching-up. Considering that the idea of threaded online discussions has been around for a couple of decades now (Usenet is 25 this year), you'd think that someone who was going to implement it anew would learn from (say) mail clients and Usenet newsreader software? But no, not particularly. Most forum software groups messages into "topics", not threads -- distinguished by the fact that a "topic" has a single root message and doesn't fork. Real discussions, of course, *do* fork, so Web forums poorly model the behavior of their users. Moreover, "topics" get unwieldy after 50 or so messages, leading forum administrators to pound on their users to "start a new topic" because the old one is "full". Huh? A thread doesn't get full.
Also, how is it that Web forum software such as phpBB and DCForum can get so popular without having something as basic as a feature to reliably catch up on unread messages, or to view messages sorted by different criteria? Sure, there's usually a feature to see which topics *have* unread messages, but when there's a dozen topics each of 100+ posts, catching up across the whole forum is slow and irritating. In contrast, every mail client in the world can tell you which messages you've read and which you haven't -- and many can distinguish "message that has been presented to you in the message list, but you never actually looked at" from "message that you have never seen at all before".
-- Karl A. Krueger kkrueger@whoi.edu
For once, this is on-topic. I would recommend Gmail for mailing lists. Personally, I like keeping WikiEN and other reasonably high-volume mailing lists away from my primary email account.
Also, the threading, while not perfect, is great for a web based system, and the automatic/user-controlled collapsing/expansion of quoted text is fantastic. Ditto for read messages in the thread - all available while reading the most recent messages.
One never has to worry about deleting messages or unwanted threads either (it's no harm to just leave it - as you'll never run out of space!) Also the search facility is very prompt compared to in-client searching of downloaded mail.
I found it to be a good way of experiencing Gmail whilst not wanting to use Gmail for my personal mail.
Zoney
~()____) This message will self-destruct in 5 seconds... _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
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Fastfission wrote:
I second this. Gmail does a great job of putting messages in similar threads together as well, which makes it almost like an online forum. I have a little flag which goes up anytime there is a thread I've written on, so I can see if there are replies, etc.
I don't know if it is still "invite only" but if so, if anybody doesn't have one (or wants another) feel free to write to me personally (off list) and I'll send you an "invite" -- I've got 50 or so of them (as probably everybody with a gmail account).
FF
I get my Gmail forwarded to my regular account, and then Thunderbird filters them into nice threads :)
- -- Alphax OpenPGP key: 0xF874C613 - http://tinyurl.com/cc9up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' - C. S. Lewis
Karl A. Krueger (kkrueger@whoi.edu) [050624 00:33]:
On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 04:43:37AM -0700, thomas-edison@ziplip.com wrote:
Mailing lists are just so inefficient.... why not just have a forum?
Mailing lists (and newsgroups) have some real advantages over Web forums.
If you have newsreading software (Thunderbird or Outlook Express will do it), you can read and post to the Wikimedia lists using gmane.org - go to http://www.gmane.org/ for info.
- d.