Is any one else bothered by the current state of [[Anti-French sentiment in the United States]]?
The article now presents a set of "accusations" which include some of the worst, most tasteless clichés, all presented in psuedo-objective style. Would anyone with a strong stomach care to tackle this stuff?
I think Wikipedia should do better than this but I am not quite sure how.
V.
I think Wikipedia should do better than this but I am not quite sure how.
V.
There is tendentious 'current affairs' stuff posted, it seems, more or less constantly. It probably doesn't get deleted at VfD, since there will be a 'public interest' defence. It might get tweaked into some sort of rational argument; my feeling is that this is about the best that can be hoped for - e.g. showing that prejudices are irrational. I rarely go near such things myself, since it is hard to believe it is work of permanent value.
Charles
Charles Matthews wrote:
There is tendentious 'current affairs' stuff posted, it seems, more or less constantly. It probably doesn't get deleted at VfD, since there will be a 'public interest' defence. It might get tweaked into some sort of rational argument; my feeling is that this is about the best that can be hoped for - e.g. showing that prejudices are irrational. I rarely go near such things myself, since it is hard to believe it is work of permanent value.
I think it's of some cultural interest---the US and France have had a stormy relationship for quite some time (which isn't yet fully documented in that article), and even Mark Twain in the 19th century was known to make some anti-French cracks. The US perception towards France is important both culturally (the perception of French as snooty and aristocratic, and Parisians as promiscuous), and, in the 20th century, politically.
Of course, the article could almost certainly be improved.
-Mark
The US perception towards France is important both culturally (the perception of French as snooty and aristocratic, and Parisians as promiscuous), and, in the 20th century, politically.
Of course, the article could almost certainly be improved.
-Mark
Well, the apparent American inability to utter the phrase 'French restaurant' without the prefix 'fancy' tells me something (about Americans); as does my own compatriots' fixed prejudice that French food is about 'sauces' (seems to come from ordering 'steack poivre' in Calais and being surprised by what arrives). I wouldn't regard the latter as particularly encyclopedic, though.
Charles
Viajero wrote:
Is any one else bothered by the current state of [[Anti-French sentiment in the United States]]?
The article now presents a set of "accusations" which include some of the worst, most tasteless clichés, all presented in psuedo-objective style. Would anyone with a strong stomach care to tackle this stuff?
I think Wikipedia should do better than this but I am not quite sure how.
Maybe just changing the title to [[Anti-French ignorance in the United States]] might be enough. :-)
Ec
Ray Saintonge wrote:
Viajero wrote:
Is any one else bothered by the current state of [[Anti-French sentiment in the United States]]?
The article now presents a set of "accusations" which include some of the worst, most tasteless clichés, all presented in psuedo-objective style. Would anyone with a strong stomach care to tackle this stuff? I think Wikipedia should do better than this but I am not quite sure how.
Maybe just changing the title to [[Anti-French ignorance in the United States]] might be enough. :-)
Of course, then we might have to rename [[Anti-American sentiment]] similarly. =]
FWIW, I think both the articles could use a bit of work, as they're both essentially listings of accusations, along the lines of "why some people think country [x] sucks", rather than actually having any sort of coherent narrative structure.
-Mark
Delirium wrote:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
Viajero wrote:
Is any one else bothered by the current state of [[Anti-French sentiment in the United States]]?
The article now presents a set of "accusations" which include some of the worst, most tasteless clichés, all presented in psuedo-objective style. Would anyone with a strong stomach care to tackle this stuff? I think Wikipedia should do better than this but I am not quite sure how.
Maybe just changing the title to [[Anti-French ignorance in the United States]] might be enough. :-)
Of course, then we might have to rename [[Anti-American sentiment]] similarly. =]
FWIW, I think both the articles could use a bit of work, as they're both essentially listings of accusations, along the lines of "why some people think country [x] sucks", rather than actually having any sort of coherent narrative structure.
The direct parallel article should be [[Anti-American sentiment in France]]. A bit of work is an understatement, and even if someone gave you the time to do it it wouldn't last long. I just looked at it again and I see such things as "Anti-American sentiments have in the past been strongly supported by Soviet propaganda ...and are promoted by dictators who see the United States as a threat to their position." That defensive attitude misses the entire point. The article is not about Soviet propaganda or sundry petty dictators. (For some of the latter United States support may be the only thing that keeps them in their position.)
I thought of making the change, but then I just thought "What's the point? If I do it won't be long before somebody adds something stupid again. I feel much better when I work on something to which the response is in the form of constructive criticism." I don't like being in that position, because I know too that, tedious as it is to do so, these bonehead POVs need to be confronted. There are rational elements in the American right, but the irrational and uninformed ones seem to be the loudest.
If it were possible I would suggest banning Americans from any editing at all on the Anti-American sentiment article. It is after all primarily about how others view Americans. Americans could read it of course; they should read it. Maybe then they might start to understand the extent of that sentiment, since the coming to power of the current administration its depth. And don't worry about such an article becoming completely silly or trivial; that would be a positve sign that foreign sentiments are improving.
Ec
Ray Saintonge wrote:
If it were possible I would suggest banning Americans from any editing at all on the Anti-American sentiment article. It is after all primarily about how others view Americans. Americans could read it of course; they should read it. Maybe then they might start to understand the extent of that sentiment, since the coming to power of the current administration its depth. And don't worry about such an article becoming completely silly or trivial; that would be a positve sign that foreign sentiments are improving.
Ah, but by that logic we would have to ban non-Americans from editing [[Anti-French sentiment in the United States]]. It is after all primarily about how Americans view the French, so clearly only an American could understand the extent of that sentiment, eh?
-Mark
Delirium wrote:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
If it were possible I would suggest banning Americans from any editing at all on the Anti-American sentiment article. It is after all primarily about how others view Americans. Americans could read it of course; they should read it. Maybe then they might start to understand the extent of that sentiment, and, since the coming to power of the current administration, its depth. And don't worry about such an article becoming completely silly or trivial; that would be a positve sign that foreign sentiments are improving.
Ah, but by that logic we would have to ban non-Americans from editing [[Anti-French sentiment in the United States]]. It is after all primarily about how Americans view the French, so clearly only an American could understand the extent of that sentiment, eh?
Certainly!
One of the clearest descriptions of the United States system was written by a Frenchman, de Tocqueville.
Ec
On 05/24/04 18:17, Ray Saintonge wrote:
Delirium wrote:
Ah, but by that logic we would have to ban non-Americans from editing [[Anti-French sentiment in the United States]]. It is after all primarily about how Americans view the French, so clearly only an American could understand the extent of that sentiment, eh?
Certainly! One of the clearest descriptions of the United States system was written by a Frenchman, de Tocqueville.
Trust me when I say that [[AdTI]] is NO RELATION WHATSOEVER.
- d.
172 has taken it upon himself to make this an anti-American screed, and has gone so far as to make multiple reverts in a 24 hour period, but no one will do anything about him, so I have given up. Even when I pointed that out, I was told, "Oh, he must not have done it intentionally."
Let any article he works on be anti-American, which is his goal, because nobody will do anything about him.
RickK
Viajero viajero@quilombo.nl wrote: Is any one else bothered by the current state of [[Anti-French sentiment in the United States]]?
The article now presents a set of "accusations" which include some of the worst, most tasteless clich�s, all presented in psuedo-objective style. Would anyone with a strong stomach care to tackle this stuff?
I think Wikipedia should do better than this but I am not quite sure how.
V. _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year
RickK wrote
172 has taken it upon himself to make this an anti-American screed,
So I was surprised to find it nearly a week since he edited it, and that nearly 40 edits have happened since then.
and has gone so far as to make multiple reverts in a 24 hour period, but no
one will do anything about him, so I have given up. Even when I pointed that out, I was told, "Oh, he must not have done it intentionally."
Let any article he works on be anti-American, which is his goal, because
nobody will do anything about him.
Well now, I don't think we should have anti-American POV in WP. I think 'jingoism' is actually wrong, as used here. You get chauvinism and nationalism everywhere, at the extremes of sentiment, though - who is going to deny that? Jingoism assumes some willingness of Americans to go to war with Chirac; which would imply partial deafness?
Charles
WIkipedia is running agonizingly slowly today. I'm having trouble posting anything because it keeps timing out on me. Am I alone in this?
RickK
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I have also noticed slowness!
I'm sure the loyal housekeepers are taking care of it.
--samrolken
----- Original Message ----- From: Rick giantsrick13@yahoo.com Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 14:50:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [WikiEN-l] SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWW To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@wikipedia.org
WIkipedia is running agonizingly slowly today. I'm having trouble posting anything because it keeps timing out on me. Am I alone in this?
RickK
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Samuel Kennedy wrote:
I have also noticed slowness!
I'm sure the loyal housekeepers are taking care of it.
A couple of the web servers were mysteriously bogging down. I've started transitioning them to the Linux 2.6 kernel, which handles process scheduling better, and they seem to have cleared up.
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
Rick wrote:
172 has taken it upon himself to make this an anti-American screed, and has gone so far as to make multiple reverts in a 24 hour period, but no one will do anything about him, so I have given up. Even when I pointed that out, I was told, "Oh, he must not have done it intentionally."
Let any article he works on be anti-American, which is his goal, because nobody will do anything about him.
That last statement is utter nonsense. It's a long way from anti-Americanism as a sentiment to anti-Americanism as a goal. Your imputation of motives is totally warranted. You should apologize to him for it.
Ec
I had very few edit wars on Wikipedia in more than 2 years. Basically, I went in edit war over the Gaia articles with RK, and with a Fat Buddha on this one : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-French_sentiment_in_the_United_States
I decided not to touch it again, because I thought it was a hopeless article. I mentionned how bad it was on this very list, more than a year ago, and other french people asked with me, that some people work on it, to straighten it a bit. But as Eclecticology would say, it is not to french people to edit it, since it is about the way American people see us.
From time to time, I go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Americanism
And I wonder why the one about anti-americanism is such a bland article, when the one about us is crap. I invite neutral editors to compare both articles.
I see that article, as a perfect example of what Wikipedia should *not* be. And after more than a year it being crap, I have doubts in the process.
The first paragraph is particularly impressive. It is a collection of opinions, none of which are attributed. It does not explain anything. It is a set of "some people think", "it is said that", "one could also say that". This article is not really informative. It does not explain the origin of these feelings. I hardly dare mention the title of this paragraph. It does not quantify disapproval either. In short, it fails its goal which is to describe and give information to understand why there is such a feeling.
However, there is one thing this article is very good at. It is the perfect article to raise anger, or even *hate* from French people. While I do not think that American would feel angered by the article on anti-americanism as it is right now. And I do not think Wikipedia should aim at raising "hate" feelings.
Viajero a écrit:
Is any one else bothered by the current state of [[Anti-French sentiment in the United States]]?
The article now presents a set of "accusations" which include some of the worst, most tasteless clichés, all presented in psuedo-objective style. Would anyone with a strong stomach care to tackle this stuff?
I think Wikipedia should do better than this but I am not quite sure how.
V.