On 9/5/07, Marc Riddell <michaeldavid86(a)comcast.net> wrote: I think you do have an agenda, but it's one of wanting to protect the project and mailing list from making itself too insular and not realising it. In defense of Marc; this is a real concern for online projects. The degree to which the project insiders are unaware or uncaring of external viewpoints varies widely from project to project (and on something as big as WP, from area to area, list to list, etc). But it is a very real and well known effect in online cultures as well as real ones. I have several times spoken out for a need for high quality gadflys on the list and around Wikipedia in general. People in a position to and willing to call us on stuff we communally get wrong or get into groupthink on are an important protective measure for the project. We've had a tendency to not develop them, which is unfortunate. What we do have, effectively, is people playing that role in specific areas where they see a problem, but otherwise generally fitting in well with the list community and wider WP community. I spent over a decade moderating Usenet groups, and have done similar roles for mailing lists before. I understand people's desire to have a moderated list. That said, I would like to encourage everyone to think about whether our current policy is making us sufficiently available to hear some gadflys and be aware of them or not. I think that the answer is probably that things are "ok" - Cheney and Blowfish and a few others still get postings through, whether they're moderated or not. And we don't appear (from what's on the list and what I've seen in private emails) to have a problem with mainstream participants being moderated much except when they go on an irrational rampage, which can happen. That said, it's reassuring to those of us concerned about this if there's an open dialog about moderation, and I agree with Marc's sentiment that knowing who's on moderation would assist in clarifying the situation. I understand the privacy issues involved with the list of those moderated being private at this time; I tend to agree that the benefit of the list and community as a whole may tend towards making it public, though. This is not my top concern about WP this week, but it is somewhat worrying. I would urge further calm discussion regarding the legitimate need for openness and the privacy tradeoffs involved. That current formal or informal moderator policy says that you can't make the list public or give it to Marc doesn't mean that we shouldn't continue to discuss whether that policy is a mistake and should change. The thing that is really annoying about this is that I don't think we have an easy way of anonymously polling those on moderation to see what they think about their status being "outed", if we change policy. Nobody has publically stood up and made a statement so far. Perhaps we can ask if anyone on moderation is interested in creating a new free account somewhere and signing up for the list and sending us just a quick note about whether you feel the moderation list being public is ok with you or not? Moderators, I hope you'd be ok with letting these through... -- -george william herbert george.herbert(a)gmail.com