Steve Summit, you have made the following suggestions regarding links to external harassment:
--------- 1. If a link in article space is allegedly non-encyclopedic, it needs to be assessed according to WP:V or WP:RS or whatever the sourcing guideline du jour is.
2. If a link in non-article space serves to harass a Wikipedia editor, it needs to be dealt with in accordance with WP:NPA, which at times has (and IMO certainly should) treat such links just as seriously as on-wiki harassment.
3. If an off-wiki page, not linked to from article space or from non-article space, harasses a Wikipedia editor, it should either be ignored, or dealt with off-wiki. Nothing we do on-wiki can punish an off-wiki harasser, or force the off-wiki harasser to remove their harassing words from the net.
Moreover, we need to keep these three cases -- especially (1) and (2) -- *separate*. In particular, the decision to keep or remove an article-space link needs to be made on the basis of that link's contributions to encyclopedic content, *without* any confounding arguments about what the linked-to page (or some other page on the linked-to site) might happen to say about a Wikipedian. Any attempt to conflate the two arguments invariably leads -- as we've seen all too well -- to irreducible confusion. (And has been pointed out, the number of pages that simultaneously (a) provide useful encyclopedic content but (b) mention Wikepedia editors -- in any light -- is really pretty vanishingly small.) --------
Currently a number of editors are working on a guideline to deal with this issue, at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Linking_to_external_harassment
What, if any, do you see as the differences between their work and your own proposal? What deficiencies do you see in the guideline as it currently stands?
(this is the version as of the writing of this e-mail: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Linking_to_external_hara...)
On 22/11/2007, jayjg jayjg99@gmail.com wrote:
Steve Summit, you have made the following suggestions regarding links to external harassment:
Currently a number of editors are working on a guideline to deal with this issue, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Linking_to_external_harassment What, if any, do you see as the differences between their work and your own proposal? What deficiencies do you see in the guideline as it currently stands?
FWIW, I cut'n'pasted Steve's three points to the talk page for discussion.
I think point 3 is the sticking point. To what degree is ignoring the hell out of them the right response? When wouldn't it be?
(I see the current version advises ignoring the hell out of them.)
(this is the version as of the writing of this e-mail: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Linking_to_external_hara...)
The guideline appears to be approaching stability. :-O Hopefully nothing deeply disagreeable to the clueful of good faith is missing, and if it is then I hope we get them there sooner rather than later.
- d.
jayjg wrote:
Currently a number of editors are working on a guideline to deal with this issue, at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Linking_to_external_harassment
What, if any, do you see as the differences between their work and your own proposal?
Well, what I wrote certainly wasn't a "proposal"; it was merely my attempt to distill the essential elements of the argument and (perhaps) their emerging consensus, as I saw them. (Though I concede that the third point was more wishful thinking on my part than the first two.) My intent was not to propose policy, but rather focus discussion.
What deficiencies do you see in the guideline as it currently stands?
On that guideline's talk page, GTBacchus wrote, "I can't keep up with the mailing list." But me, I can't always keep up with policy and talk pages. So I can't answer that yet.
It's starting to look like a crucial issue is, as I wrote on the guideline's talk page just now, the distinction between "linking to harass" and "linking to harassment". Everyone agrees on (not doing) the former; it's the latter that's much more problematical. If we want to ban mere links to harassment, we have a lot more work to do in defining what that means, and articulating why we want to, and resolving conflicts with other core policies, and limiting collateral damage.