Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

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Daniel R. Tobias

17 Jan 2007 17 Jan '07

5:06 a.m.

On 16 Jan 2007 at 14:58, Phil Sandifer <Snowspinner(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

It points to a fundamental flaw in Citizendium, and one that wouldn't surprise anyone who saw Larry's name attached to it - it's an encyclopedia that favors experts that's run by someone with a view of the academy that is wildly out of step with current senses of what mainstream academic thought is.

Out of step with the leftist PC bullshit that's been piled high and deep on most campuses since the '60s, anyway. -- == Dan == Dan's Mail Format Site: http://mailformat.dan.info/ Dan's Web Tips: http://webtips.dan.info/ Dan's Domain Site: http://domains.dan.info/

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Phil Sandifer

17 Jan 17 Jan

5:09 a.m.

New subject: Troubling news on Citizendium

On Jan 17, 2007, at 12:06 AM, Daniel R. Tobias wrote:

...

On 16 Jan 2007 at 14:58, Phil Sandifer <Snowspinner(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Out of step with the leftist PC bullshit that's been piled high and deep on most campuses since the '60s, anyway.

To be clear, I'm fine with that. It's a respectable viewpoint. But it's a damn stupid viewpoint for anyone looking to write an encyclopedia that favors "experts." The experts go for that right now. If Larry wants an encyclopedia free of its biases, he should work on one. But he shouldn't call it an encyclopedia run by experts if he's going to dismiss the experts. -Phil

George Herbert

5:46 a.m.

New subject: Troubling news on Citizendium

On 1/16/07, Phil Sandifer <Snowspinner(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On Jan 17, 2007, at 12:06 AM, Daniel R. Tobias wrote:

On 16 Jan 2007 at 14:58, Phil Sandifer <Snowspinner(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Out of step with the leftist PC bullshit that's been piled high and deep on most campuses since the '60s, anyway.

The problem with experts is that, outside the hard sciences and engineering, you get so many opinions per expert, most of them mutually contradictory at some level... (ducking to avoid the brie and wine my humanist colleagues are launching in my general direction) -- -george william herbert george.herbert(a)gmail.com

Stan Shebs

4:11 p.m.

New subject: Troubling news on Citizendium

Phil Sandifer wrote:

...

[...] If Larry wants an encyclopedia free of its biases, he should work on one. But he shouldn't call it an encyclopedia run by experts if he's going to dismiss the experts.

There are plenty of experts going at each other with knives on WP; expertise is simply a fund of knowledge, and does not magically confer diplomatic, communication, or collaboration skills. In fact, great knowledge tends to breed arrogance, making conflict more likely, not less so. CZ adds real names and attributions to the mix, raising the stakes even further by introducing the possibility of effect on one's careers. The organizer would need the superior political skills of an Ivy League dean to make it all work, but Larry's forum postings don't evidence much improvement at diplomacy since the times he was angering editors on WP. Stan

Nina Stratton

4:20 p.m.

New subject: Troubling news on Citizendium

+! On 1/17/07, Stan Shebs <stanshebs(a)earthlink.net> wrote:

...

Phil Sandifer wrote:

[...] If Larry wants an encyclopedia free of its biases, he should work on one. But he shouldn't call it an encyclopedia run by experts if he's going to dismiss the experts.

-- Sincerely, Nina "Look at the sky. We are not alone. The whole universe is friendly to us and conspires only to give the best to those who dream and work." - Abdul Kalam

Marc Riddell

5:24 p.m.

New subject: Troubling news on Citizendium

...

From: "Nina Stratton" <ninaeliza(a)gmail.com> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 08:20:48 -0800 To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium +! On 1/17/07, Stan Shebs <stanshebs(a)earthlink.net> wrote: > > Phil Sandifer wrote: >> >> [...] If Larry wants an encyclopedia free of its biases, he should >> work on one. But he shouldn't call it an encyclopedia run by experts >> if he's going to dismiss the experts. >> > There are plenty of experts going at each other with knives on WP; > expertise is simply a fund of knowledge, and does not magically confer > diplomatic, communication, or collaboration skills. In fact, great > knowledge tends to breed arrogance, making conflict more likely, not > less so. CZ adds real names and attributions to the mix, raising the > stakes even further by introducing the possibility of effect on one's > careers. The organizer would need the superior political skills of an > Ivy League dean to make it all work, but Larry's forum postings don't > evidence much improvement at diplomacy since the times he was angering > editors on WP. > > Stan

Ya know what we need in WP, an Article on Expertaphobia: The fear of, and seeming intimidation by, people who know stuff about things. Someone, I don't recall who it was, wrote that they would never work on something where experts were involved. Really? Who would you go to if you needed heart surgery, or wanted to learn how to play a violin? Don't look now, but you are working with the aid of experts right now! Those marvelous persons behind the scenes of this computerized market place who make all of this possible. Without them we would be typing into the ether. Ease up! Marc Riddell

...

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-- Sincerely, Nina "Look at the sky. We are not alone. The whole universe is friendly to us and conspires only to give the best to those who dream and work." - Abdul Kalam _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Stan Shebs

10:09 p.m.

New subject: Troubling news on Citizendium

Marc Riddell wrote:

...

Ya know what we need in WP, an Article on Expertaphobia: The fear of, and seeming intimidation by, people who know stuff about things.

I think there is one somewhere already, maybe on meta.

...

Someone, I don't recall who it was, wrote that they would never work on something where experts were involved. Really? Who would you go to if you needed heart surgery, or wanted to learn how to play a violin? Don't look now, but you are working with the aid of experts right now! Those marvelous persons behind the scenes of this computerized market place who make all of this possible. Without them we would be typing into the ether.

Indeed, I'm an expert in some areas myself, and there are even a couple articles in WP where I could fairly lay claim to being the "leading authority" on those topics. There have been plenty of times where I've seen a moronic edit and spluttered at the screen "who do you think you are, to be questioning *me*?", and times where I was tempted to add an interesting detail, and then realized that I only knew it because of a private email in my possession - so the WP addition must await publication of the book. WP is an unusual challenge for experts, because you can't just say "X is true" and have a crowd of adoring students copy it down uncritically. It's much more like being the ringer at the pool hall, where you go in unknown and have to impress people with your present skill rather than your past reputation. I think it's a good challenge for experts actually - can you command respect for your knowledge using your words alone, without falling back on the CV? We have some pseudonymous experts in WP who are really world-class and receive considerable deference, so it can work that way. Stan

Nina Stratton

18 Jan 18 Jan

1:20 p.m.

New subject: Troubling news on Citizendium

On 1/17/07, Marc Riddell <michaeldavid86(a)comcast.net> wrote:

...

Fair enough. As long as my intelligence, experience, and ability to learn aren't discounted. I've been made to feel small a lot in my life by "experts", simply because I didn't have one or two pieces of paper. It's all good now and I love my career and life, but Wikipedia is important to me because it's pretty much the opposite of my past. People respect my skills and insight here. It's greatly improved my confidence level on all fronts. In fact (why yes, it's quite ironic), I'm planning on going back to school and getting my long-lost bachelor's and masters in Human Services as a direct result of my time here (among other things - my job plays a big part in it too). Some of the editors that I've come to respect the most on Wikipedia are not only non-experts, they're teenagers. My teenage collaborators have been extremely active, and have gotten references to things no one else could find. They're also knowledgeable, helpful, and kind. When I say teenagers, I'm talking 14-15, not 18-19. They've impressed me in their editing and insight more than any "expert".

...

Sincerely, Nina "Look at the sky. We are not alone. The whole universe is friendly to us

and

conspires only to give the best to those who dream and work." - Abdul

Kalam

_______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

-- Sincerely, Nina "Look at the sky. We are not alone. The whole universe is friendly to us and conspires only to give the best to those who dream and work." - Abdul Kalam

Marc Riddell

2:57 p.m.

New subject: Troubling news on Citizendium

...

Nina, Long before there were university degrees, there was the human being¹s ability to reason, and, most importantly to empathize. A formal education can help you fine tune the first one of these, but no type or amount of this education can give you the second one. You seem to have it. Nurture it, use it you¹re already far ahead of the game. Whatever formal degrees I may have, I consider them as things I¹ve accumulated on the way to learning something. And, as necessary keys that provide me access to the most important part the persons I am trying to reach. If someone is trying to put you down, they must need you to be there, so they can be where they are. Best of luck in your studies and work in Human Services. The field could use many more like you. You appear to have a particular feel for adolescents. I don't know what your present work is in now, but perhaps your self is trying to tell you something about a career change. Consider adolescent psychology; the teens could use someone like you. Perspective: B.S. = Bull.Shit. M.S. = More.Shit. - Ph.D. = Piled high. & Deep. :-) Be healthy, Marc Riddell

...

"Look at the sky. We are not alone. The whole universe is friendly to us

and

conspires only to give the best to those who dream and work." - Abdul

Kalam

_______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Nina Stratton

5:41 p.m.

New subject: Troubling news on Citizendium

Thank you for your very kind words, Marc. I will treasure them in the grueling toil and beauracracy that is Higher Education in America.:) Nina On 1/18/07, Marc Riddell <michaeldavid86(a)comcast.net> wrote:

...

From: "Nina Stratton" <ninaeliza(a)gmail.com> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 05:20:23 -0800 To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium On 1/17/07, Marc Riddell <michaeldavid86(a)comcast.net> wrote: > > > >> From: "Nina Stratton" <ninaeliza(a)gmail.com> >> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> >> Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 08:20:48 -0800 >> To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> >> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium >> >> +! >> >> On 1/17/07, Stan Shebs <stanshebs(a)earthlink.net> wrote: >>> >>> Phil Sandifer wrote: >>>> >>>> [...] If Larry wants an encyclopedia free of its biases, he should >>>> work on one. But he shouldn't call it an encyclopedia run by experts >>>> if he's going to dismiss the experts. >>>> >>> There are plenty of experts going at each other with knives on WP; >>> expertise is simply a fund of knowledge, and does not magically

confer

>>> diplomatic, communication, or collaboration skills. In fact, great >>> knowledge tends to breed arrogance, making conflict more likely, not >>> less so. CZ adds real names and attributions to the mix, raising the >>> stakes even further by introducing the possibility of effect on one's >>> careers. The organizer would need the superior political skills of an >>> Ivy League dean to make it all work, but Larry's forum postings don't >>> evidence much improvement at diplomacy since the times he was

angering

>>> editors on WP. >>> >>> Stan > > Ya know what we need in WP, an Article on Expertaphobia: The fear of,

and

> seeming intimidation by, people who know stuff about things. > > Someone, I don't recall who it was, wrote that they would never work on > something where experts were involved. Really? Who would you go to if

you

> needed heart surgery, or wanted to learn how to play a violin? > > Don't look now, but you are working with the aid of experts right now! > Those > marvelous persons behind the scenes of this computerized market place

who

> make all of this possible. Without them we would be typing into the

ether.

Ease up! Marc Riddell >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> WikiEN-l mailing list >> WikiEN-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: >> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Fair enough. As long as my intelligence, experience, and ability to

learn

aren't discounted. I've been made to feel small a lot in my life by "experts", simply because I didn't have one or two pieces of paper. It's

all

good now and I love my career and life, but Wikipedia is important to me because it's pretty much the opposite of my past. People respect my skills and insight here. It's greatly improved my confidence level on all fronts. In fact (why yes, it's quite ironic),

I'm

planning on going back to school and getting my long-lost bachelor's and masters in Human Services as a direct result of my time here (among

other

things - my job plays a big part in it too). Some of the editors that I've come to respect the most on Wikipedia are

not

only non-experts, they're teenagers. My teenage collaborators have been extremely active, and have gotten references to things no one else could find. They're also knowledgeable, helpful, and kind. When I say

teenagers,

I'm talking 14-15, not 18-19. They've impressed me in their editing and insight more than any "expert". >> Sincerely, >> >> Nina

>> "Look at the sky. We are not alone. The whole universe is friendly to

and

conspires only to give the best to those who dream and work." - Abdul

Kalam

_______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

-- Sincerely, Nina "Look at the sky. We are not alone. The whole universe is friendly to us

and

conspires only to give the best to those who dream and work." - Abdul

Kalam

_______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

-- Sincerely, Nina "Look at the sky. We are not alone. The whole universe is friendly to us and conspires only to give the best to those who dream and work." - Abdul Kalam

Marc Riddell

19 Jan 19 Jan

3:03 a.m.

New subject: Troubling news on Citizendium

...

From: "Nina Stratton" <ninaeliza(a)gmail.com> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 09:41:01 -0800 To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium Thank you for your very kind words, Marc. I will treasure them in the grueling toil and beauracracy that is Higher Education in America.:) Nina

You inspired the words, Nina. As for Higher Education in America: give it an ulcer, before it gives you one ;-). Marc

...

On 1/18/07, Marc Riddell <michaeldavid86(a)comcast.net> wrote:

confer

angering

>>> editors on WP. >>> >>> Stan > > Ya know what we need in WP, an Article on Expertaphobia: The fear of,

and

you

who

> make all of this possible. Without them we would be typing into the

ether.

Fair enough. As long as my intelligence, experience, and ability to

learn

aren't discounted. I've been made to feel small a lot in my life by "experts", simply because I didn't have one or two pieces of paper. It's

all

I'm

planning on going back to school and getting my long-lost bachelor's and masters in Human Services as a direct result of my time here (among

other

things - my job plays a big part in it too). Some of the editors that I've come to respect the most on Wikipedia are

not

teenagers,

I'm talking 14-15, not 18-19. They've impressed me in their editing and insight more than any "expert". >> Sincerely, >> >> Nina

>> "Look at the sky. We are not alone. The whole universe is friendly to

and

conspires only to give the best to those who dream and work." - Abdul

Kalam

_______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

-- Sincerely, Nina "Look at the sky. We are not alone. The whole universe is friendly to us

and

conspires only to give the best to those who dream and work." - Abdul

Kalam

_______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Ray Saintonge

12:57 a.m.

New subject: Troubling news on Citizendium

Nina Stratton wrote:

...

On 1/17/07, Marc Riddell <michaeldavid86(a)comcast.net> wrote:

Great! You and Marc approach the issues from entirely different perspectives, and are approaching a consensus. That's what it's all about. Ec

Ray Saintonge

18 Jan 18 Jan

8:44 p.m.

New subject: Troubling news on Citizendium

Marc Riddell wrote:

...

Ya know what we need in WP, an Article on Expertaphobia: The fear of, and seeming intimidation by, people who know stuff about things.

That assumes that all experts know what they are talking about. Some do. Others have merely been credentialized. We also have Wikipedians who are incapable of making that distinction.. I don't even know if a fear properly encompases the situation; there is also a clear rejection of deference.

...

That's one end of the scale. I think that most of us are willing to find some level of working arrangement with experts. This necessarily involves a rejection of the argument that a difference of opinion is decided by the fact that one of the participants is an expert. We are not generally going to practice heart surgery or violin playing, but we may enter into discussions about those topics, and we want the experts to understand that the opinions of others should not be perfunctorily dismissed.

...

Don't look now, but you are working with the aid of experts right now! Those marvelous persons behind the scenes of this computerized market place who make all of this possible. Without them we would be typing into the ether.

True enough, but we can still argue with them. When they propose software "improvements" they still need to interact with those of us who may feel oppressed by improvements. There was a virtue to keeping Wikisyntax simple as it used to be. Ec

Ray Saintonge

8:13 p.m.

New subject: Troubling news on Citizendium

Stan Shebs wrote:

...

Phil Sandifer wrote:

[...] If Larry wants an encyclopedia free of its biases, he should work on one. But he shouldn't call it an encyclopedia run by experts if he's going to dismiss the experts.

Perhaps the difference is reflected in the analogy of WP as a bar-fight beside CZ as genteel sanctioned combat in a professional wrestling ring. :-) Ec

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Daniel R. Tobias
George Herbert
Marc Riddell
Nina Stratton
Phil Sandifer
Ray Saintonge
Stan Shebs