A question for the participants in wikien-l:
The listmods would quite like to turn on the flag whereby messages from non-subscribers are automatically rejected or discarded.
* It would reduce the spamload and thus make moderation faster. * It would avoid situations where people post unsubscribed, others reply to the list, and the original poster doesn't get the replies. * wikien-l isn't unblock-l any more, and for general outside contact we have info@wikimedia.org. So there doesn't appear to be an obvious need for it.
Against:
* the Wikipedia principle of allowing everything and only closing things off as it becomes *necessary*. This is more a "mod pain in the backside" and "some increase in listmod efficiency" thing.
So we want to run it past the list, you the participants we serve, first. For/against and why? (This is not quite a straw poll.)
- d.
On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 1:48 AM, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
A question for the participants in wikien-l:
The listmods would quite like to turn on the flag whereby messages from non-subscribers are automatically rejected or discarded.
+1, if you make the error message clear enough. Which I'm sure you will. :)
Michel
Yep, agree with this. Should also add a note on the list's main page noting that non-subscribers can't send to it.
On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 10:51 AM, Michel Vuijlsteke wikipedia@zog.org wrote:
On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 1:48 AM, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
A question for the participants in wikien-l:
The listmods would quite like to turn on the flag whereby messages from non-subscribers are automatically rejected or discarded.
+1, if you make the error message clear enough. Which I'm sure you will. :)
Michel _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 11:48 AM, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
Against:
- the Wikipedia principle of allowing everything and only closing
things off as it becomes *necessary*. This is more a "mod pain in the backside" and "some increase in listmod efficiency" thing.
Well it's for everyone's benefit, since posters won't necessarily realise that they need to subscribe to recieve replies to their own messages (there are some configs out there that will add unsubscribed posters to the Reply-To).
On 03/03/2008, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
A question for the participants in wikien-l:
The listmods would quite like to turn on the flag whereby messages from non-subscribers are automatically rejected or discarded.
- It would reduce the spamload and thus make moderation faster.
- It would avoid situations where people post unsubscribed, others
reply to the list, and the original poster doesn't get the replies.
- wikien-l isn't unblock-l any more, and for general outside contact
we have info@wikimedia.org. So there doesn't appear to be an obvious need for it.
Against:
- the Wikipedia principle of allowing everything and only closing
things off as it becomes *necessary*. This is more a "mod pain in the backside" and "some increase in listmod efficiency" thing.
So we want to run it past the list, you the participants we serve, first. For/against and why? (This is not quite a straw poll.)
- d.
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
This is the kind of list where there is no reason not to be subscribed if you want to participate (unlike unblock-l, arbcom-l etc). I agree with the proposal.
This is a discussion list. Being subscribed is a prerequisite for discussion, so there is no point in having unsubscribed people posting here.
We let anons post to VP, AN, etc. which are for discussion, on the other hand.
On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 11:10 AM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.com wrote:
This is a discussion list. Being subscribed is a prerequisite for discussion, so there is no point in having unsubscribed people posting here.
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
On 03/03/2008, Alex G g1ggyman@gmail.com wrote:
We let anons post to VP, AN, etc. which are for discussion, on the other hand.
Being anonymous doesn't preclude you discussing things on a wiki page. Not being subscribed to a mailing list means you won't receive the replies, which does preclude discussion.
On 03/03/2008, Alex G g1ggyman@gmail.com wrote:
We let anons post to VP, AN, etc. which are for discussion, on the other hand.
This list isn't a wiki, and like registered users getting better features of Wikipedia, the same should go for subscribed people here.
On 03/03/2008, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
So we want to run it past the list, you the participants we serve, first. For/against and why? (This is not quite a straw poll.)
What proportion of messages would currently be bounced? It's hard to make any conclusions without knowing if this affects one useful email a month or seventy...
On 03/03/2008, Andrew Gray shimgray@gmail.com wrote:
On 03/03/2008, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
So we want to run it past the list, you the participants we serve, first. For/against and why? (This is not quite a straw poll.)
What proportion of messages would currently be bounced? It's hard to make any conclusions without knowing if this affects one useful email a month or seventy...
We get very few emails to the list that aren't from subscribed addresses. These are either:
1. Wikipedians dropping in to make one comment. (maybe one a week?) 2. Non-Wikipedians emailing here as if it's info@ (maybe one or two a month?)
- d.
On 03/03/2008, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
We get very few emails to the list that aren't from subscribed addresses. These are either:
- Wikipedians dropping in to make one comment. (maybe one a week?)
- Non-Wikipedians emailing here as if it's info@ (maybe one or two a month?)
That's emails from humans intended for the list, I mean - we get hundreds of spam emails every day. Going through these for the mail from the above categories and from the moderated posters is similar to fishing through sewage. (The Mailman interface could do with all sorts of improvements in this regard.)
- d.
David Gerard wrote:
On 03/03/2008, Andrew Gray shimgray@gmail.com wrote:
On 03/03/2008, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
So we want to run it past the list, you the participants we serve, first. For/against and why? (This is not quite a straw poll.)
What proportion of messages would currently be bounced? It's hard to make any conclusions without knowing if this affects one useful email a month or seventy...
We get very few emails to the list that aren't from subscribed addresses. These are either:
- Wikipedians dropping in to make one comment. (maybe one a week?)
- Non-Wikipedians emailing here as if it's info@ (maybe one or two a month?)
I would infer from that that we are not dealing with a big problem. It is sometimes refreshing to read comments from someone who is not one of the usual suspects.
Ec
On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 1:47 PM, Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net wrote:
I would infer from that that we are not dealing with a big problem. It is sometimes refreshing to read comments from someone who is not one of the usual suspects.
I think he means they are having to go through hundreds of garbage emails for these very few good ones. :(
On 03/03/2008, cohesion cohesion@sleepyhead.org wrote:
On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 1:47 PM, Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net wrote:
I would infer from that that we are not dealing with a big problem. It is sometimes refreshing to read comments from someone who is not one of the usual suspects.
I think he means they are having to go through hundreds of garbage emails for these very few good ones. :(
Seriously, David's suggestion would make it easier to manage the list, at the small price of requiring an extra step from occasional non-members who want to send email to the list.
My suggestion was to reduce the collateral damage caused by hijacking of email addresses by spammers, but it has the disadvantage that a non-members who sends a one-off email to the list woud never know that it had been received unless he specifically examined the online archives. For that reason, I now think it would be unsuitable.
If possible, don't bounce the spam, just silently eat it. This reduces the amount of spam (and replies to spam) in the system. The instructions on joining the list aren't a huge secret, there's a web link in the signature of every single list mail.
On 03/03/2008, Tony Sidaway tonysidaway@gmail.com wrote:
If possible, don't bounce the spam, just silently eat it. This reduces the amount of spam (and replies to spam) in the system. The instructions on joining the list aren't a huge secret, there's a web link in the signature of every single list mail.
Not bouncing leads to problems where someone thinks they're subscribed but aren't (which is relatively easy to do, even if you're familiar with mailing lists...) - they'll send mails which won't get through, but they won't realise this and will just be under the impression we're not responding.
On 03/03/2008, Andrew Gray shimgray@gmail.com wrote:
Not bouncing leads to problems where someone thinks they're subscribed but aren't (which is relatively easy to do, even if you're familiar with mailing lists...) - they'll send mails which won't get through, but they won't realise this and will just be under the impression we're not responding.
Yes, that possibility has to be weighed against a few hundred spam replies from wikien-l's server every day. I know which one I go for, your mileage may vary.
On 03/03/2008, Andrew Gray shimgray@gmail.com wrote:
On 03/03/2008, Tony Sidaway tonysidaway@gmail.com wrote:
If possible, don't bounce the spam, just silently eat it. This reduces the amount of spam (and replies to spam) in the system. The instructions on joining the list aren't a huge secret, there's a web link in the signature of every single list mail.
Not bouncing leads to problems where someone thinks they're subscribed but aren't (which is relatively easy to do, even if you're familiar with mailing lists...) - they'll send mails which won't get through, but they won't realise this and will just be under the impression we're not responding.
This is a particular problem with Gmail, which helpfully refuses to display the received copy of a message you've sent. Presumably for one's comfort and convenience.
- d.
On 3/3/08, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
This is a particular problem with Gmail, which helpfully refuses to display the received copy of a message you've sent. Presumably for one's comfort and convenience.
On top of that, it sticks you sent message into the conversation whether or not it's received and accepted deceiving you into thinking the message was accepted when it might still be in the mod queue.
On 03/03/2008, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
A question for the participants in wikien-l:
The listmods would quite like to turn on the flag whereby messages from non-subscribers are automatically rejected or discarded.
I agree, and was surprised that this wasn't already in place when I found out.
I'm wondering, since I use gmail's feature to make it appear that I am using another address (fsf.org) whether or not my emails would still go through or I would have to resubscribe (since I used gmail to sign up originally.)
On 3/3/08, James Farrar james.farrar@gmail.com wrote:
On 03/03/2008, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
A question for the participants in wikien-l:
The listmods would quite like to turn on the flag whereby messages from non-subscribers are automatically rejected or discarded.
I agree, and was surprised that this wasn't already in place when I found out.
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
On 03/03/2008, Angela Anuszewski psu256@member.fsf.org wrote:
I'm wondering, since I use gmail's feature to make it appear that I am using another address (fsf.org) whether or not my emails would still go through or I would have to resubscribe (since I used gmail to sign up originally.)
Do your emails appear immediately or do they take a while to get through? If they appear immediately, then they aren't getting moderated and you'll be fine. If they take a while, then you need to subscribe with the other address.
On 03/03/2008, Angela Anuszewski psu256@member.fsf.org wrote:
I'm wondering, since I use gmail's feature to make it appear that I am using another address (fsf.org) whether or not my emails would still go through or I would have to resubscribe (since I used gmail to sign up originally.)
Check the web archive to see if your mail's made it (keeping in mind it doesn't update immediately).
If you're using alternate From: addresses, you should probably subscribe these with the "no mail" option set for that address.
- d.
If you're having to sort though hundreds (thousands?) of emails for ~3 a week, turn it on! I'm surprised the admins even asked us. :)
A nice bounce email with instructions for how to sign up, and about info@wikipedia.org seems fine.