I'm working on a proposal to try to add some sanity to our notability procedures, and to better organize our coverage of areas where we have, essentially, multiple articles on a single topic. It uses a template-based system that duplicates much of the functionality of subpages.
More about it later - I'm still working on some aspects of it. All I want to know for now is what the logic was on deprecating subpages in the article space, and what the technical decision to turn off MediaWiki's subpages means for content issues.
That is, is the decision to turn off subpages just at technical decision because of the problem it causes for articles like [[OS/2]]? Is there a consensus on the content issues of subpages? What is this consensus, and where can I read its forming so that I can make my proposal adhere to it, or make it so that accepting my proposal definitely and clearly alters it?
Thanks, Phil Sandifer
On 02/09/2008, Philip Sandifer snowspinner@gmail.com wrote:
I'm working on a proposal to try to add some sanity to our notability procedures, and to better organize our coverage of areas where we have, essentially, multiple articles on a single topic. It uses a template-based system that duplicates much of the functionality of subpages.
More about it later - I'm still working on some aspects of it. All I want to know for now is what the logic was on deprecating subpages in the article space, and what the technical decision to turn off MediaWiki's subpages means for content issues.
That is, is the decision to turn off subpages just at technical decision because of the problem it causes for articles like [[OS/2]]? Is there a consensus on the content issues of subpages? What is this consensus, and where can I read its forming so that I can make my proposal adhere to it, or make it so that accepting my proposal definitely and clearly alters it?
There are some real advantages to this concept, Phil. Interestingly, a similar idea has recently been bandied about by User:Joopercoopers, as can be seen at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Joopercoopers/Tabbed_articles
Perhaps the two of you could work together on this, particularly after the technical questions have been answered.
Risker
On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 12:57 PM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote: [snip]
Perhaps the two of you could work together on this, particularly after the technical questions have been answered.
Technical questions?
AFAIR 'subpages' were only turned off because (1) their use in the main namespace was discouraged, and (2) they goofed up articles like [[OS/2]].
I don't think there is really any external-to-enwp-policy technical factor why they should be disabled.
I don't think there is really any external-to-enwp-policy technical
factor why they should be disabled.
No need to be so sceptical! Phil has ideas for sub pages, and was simply enquiring about why they were turned off and/or if they can be turned back on. I for one would like to see where this idea goes.
2008/9/2 Gregory Maxwell gmaxwell@gmail.com
On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 12:57 PM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote: [snip]
Perhaps the two of you could work together on this, particularly after
the
technical questions have been answered.
Technical questions?
AFAIR 'subpages' were only turned off because (1) their use in the main namespace was discouraged, and (2) they goofed up articles like [[OS/2]].
I don't think there is really any external-to-enwp-policy technical factor why they should be disabled.
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Is it possible you misread this, AGK? I don't think he was being skeptical.
I think its an alternative is a good idea - actually I think subpages would be a good idea as well, if a mechanism could be found to deal with articles like OS/2. I've seen the issue discussed a few times over the last year or so, but each time the main reason for shooting it down is the "community consensus" against subpages. Angela's links present an opportunity and an obstacle - if those are the only discussions in which consensus was formed, then there is no "local" en.wp policy against it. The obstacle being, of course, the meta-wiki consensus. If its disabled in MediaWiki, is there an option to enable it or circumvent it technically (using templates, also discussed on [[User_talk:Lar]]) just on en.wp?
Nathan
On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 1:35 PM, AGK agkwiki@googlemail.com wrote:
I don't think there is really any external-to-enwp-policy technical
factor why they should be disabled.
No need to be so sceptical! Phil has ideas for sub pages, and was simply enquiring about why they were turned off and/or if they can be turned back on. I for one would like to see where this idea goes.
On Sep 2, 2008, at 10:35 PM, Nathan wrote:
Is it possible you misread this, AGK? I don't think he was being skeptical.
I think its an alternative is a good idea - actually I think subpages would be a good idea as well, if a mechanism could be found to deal with articles like OS/2. I've seen the issue discussed a few times over the last year or so, but each time the main reason for shooting it down is the "community consensus" against subpages. Angela's links present an opportunity and an obstacle - if those are the only discussions in which consensus was formed, then there is no "local" en.wp policy against it. The obstacle being, of course, the meta-wiki consensus. If its disabled in MediaWiki, is there an option to enable it or circumvent it technically (using templates, also discussed on [[User_talk:Lar]]) just on en.wp?
Were we to circumvent it, templates would be the best way to do so, I am at this point convinced.
-Phil
On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 1:07 AM, Philip Sandifer snowspinner@gmail.com wrote:
That is, is the decision to turn off subpages just at technical decision because of the problem it causes for articles like [[OS/2]]?
It wasn't just a technical decision. The discussion about why it was done can still be found at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Case_against_subpages and http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Get_rid_of_subpages_entirely and other pages on meta linked from those.
Angela
On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 4:58 PM, Angela beesley@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 1:07 AM, Philip Sandifer snowspinner@gmail.com wrote:
That is, is the decision to turn off subpages just at technical decision because of the problem it causes for articles like [[OS/2]]?
It wasn't just a technical decision. The discussion about why it was done can still be found at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Case_against_subpages and http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Get_rid_of_subpages_entirely and other pages on meta linked from those.
Reading this, it looks like subpages were originally used for categorization. The category system now developed is much more flexible. It allows an article to exist in multiple categories, for instance.
OTOH, there doesn't seem to be an argument against something like [[Thailand/History]] for an article like [[History of Thailand]].
Phil, can you explain what you mean by "areas where we have, essentially, multiple articles on a single topic", or should we wait for your final proposal? Multiple articles on a single topic sounds like a bad thing with a simple solution. Merge and redirect. The ugly merge/redirects come from the "solution" to a different situation - multiple articles on multiple topics.
From the looks ofd that discussion, the main object was that it would
lead to content forks, or organizing related articles. The possible use for specific types of auxiliary content, source as references or data, does not seem to have been discussed there. I notice Larry Sanger as a major participant--and Citizendium currently does use subpages for those purposes among others.
On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 4:58 PM, Angela beesley@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 1:07 AM, Philip Sandifer snowspinner@gmail.com wrote:
That is, is the decision to turn off subpages just at technical decision because of the problem it causes for articles like [[OS/2]]?
It wasn't just a technical decision. The discussion about why it was done can still be found at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Case_against_subpages and http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Get_rid_of_subpages_entirely and other pages on meta linked from those.
Angela
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