Hello all,
there is a dispute in several articles, whether the Oder/Odra river should be called by its German or its Polish name. The same for the Neisse/Nysa river and the Oder-Neisse line/Odra-Nysa line. I'd like to ask the community, which name is used more often by native English speakers. There are some annoying accusations in this dispute (see [[User talk:Taw|Taw's talk page]] for more details), so I would like to let the majority decide and end the seesaw changes on the relating pages.
Mirko.
Sounds like you've been talking to Helga ;-)
Magnus
P.S.: I only know it as Oder-Neisse line. Of course, I'm German...
Mirko Thiessen wrote:
Hello all,
there is a dispute in several articles, whether the Oder/Odra river should be called by its German or its Polish name. The same for the Neisse/Nysa river and the Oder-Neisse line/Odra-Nysa line. I'd like to ask the community, which name is used more often by native English speakers. There are some annoying accusations in this dispute (see [[User talk:Taw|Taw's talk page]] for more details), so I would like to let the majority decide and end the seesaw changes on the relating pages.
Mirko.
Mirko Thiessen wrote:
I'd like to ask the community, which name is used more often by native English speakers.
Searching only English pages for "Oder River" -- 2,970 "Odra River" -- 1,730 Oder River -- 35,000 Odra River -- 3,940
"Neisse River" -- 415 "Nysa River" -- 38 Neisse River -- 1,600 Nysa River -- 1,920
On the other hand, [[user:Space Cadet]] on User_talk:Taw has written:
Or, why don't we just wait a couple more months until the "official English name" changes to the original "ODRA" and everybody's happy? Let's look into the future!"
I'm not sure what this means, exactly, since there is no such thing as "official" English, but I assume it means something, and whatever it does mean, is probably an important factor.
What do dictionaries say? What does Britannica do? Encarta? U.S. government sources? British and Australian government sources?
--Jimbo
Jimmy Wales wrote:
Mirko Thiessen wrote:
I'd like to ask the community, which name is used more often by native English speakers.
On the other hand, [[user:Space Cadet]] on User_talk:Taw has written:
Or, why don't we just wait a couple more months until the "official English name" changes to the original "ODRA" and everybody's happy? Let's look into the future!"
I'm not sure what this means, exactly, since there is no such thing as "official" English, but I assume it means something, and whatever it does mean, is probably an important factor.
What do dictionaries say? What does Britannica do? Encarta? U.S. government sources? British and Australian government sources?
I looked at this last Nov. 6 and remarked at [[Talk:Oder]]
Wikipedia is an English language encyclopedia. As such the names should be the English language names without regard to local political sensitivities. Here "Oder" is the correct conventional name in accordance with NIMA: http://www.nima.mil/gns/html/index.html
I hadn't looked at the other river then, and I now find that it uses "Neisse" as the conventional name.
Space Cadet made a similar response in a slightly more expanded version on that talk page. It seems that in repeating himself he changed "conventional" to "official". His waiting for the "official" name to be changed may be an exercise in wishful thinking. The simple fact that English is a Germanic rather than a Slavic language also favours the affinity to Oder and Neisse.
Eclecticology
Definitely Oder and Neisser. I never even heard of Odra and Nysa. Zoe Mirko Thiessen mt@mirko-thiessen.de wrote:Hello all,
there is a dispute in several articles, whether the Oder/Odra river should be called by its German or its Polish name. The same for the Neisse/Nysa river and the Oder-Neisse line/Odra-Nysa line. I'd like to ask the community, which name is used more often by native English speakers. There are some annoying accusations in this dispute (see [[User talk:Taw|Taw's talk page]] for more details), so I would like to let the majority decide and end the seesaw changes on the relating pages.
Mirko.
Remembering that we have no opinion ourselves and that the object is to transmit information to our users who may use either name, we should use both.
Fred
From: Mirko Thiessen mt@mirko-thiessen.de Reply-To: wikien-l@wikipedia.org Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 17:15:34 +0100 To: wikien-l@wikipedia.org Subject: [WikiEN-l] River names Oder/Odra and Neisse/Nysa
Hello all,
there is a dispute in several articles, whether the Oder/Odra river should be called by its German or its Polish name. The same for the Neisse/Nysa river and the Oder-Neisse line/Odra-Nysa line. I'd like to ask the community, which name is used more often by native English speakers. There are some annoying accusations in this dispute (see [[User talk:Taw|Taw's talk page]] for more details), so I would like to let the majority decide and end the seesaw changes on the relating pages.
Mirko.
-- Mirko Thiessen http://www.mirko-thiessen.de
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@wikipedia.org http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Fred Bauder wrote:
Remembering that we have no opinion ourselves and that the object is to transmit information to our users who may use either name, we should use both.
That doesn't solve the problem. We still have to chose which has the article and which has the redirect.
Eclecticology
The Oder-Niesse line is very well known by that name in the United States. Of course, what it is known for is marking the border between Poland and Germany, established as such at the end of World War II, so it is natural that Polish people are sensitive about it. Nonetheless, it is not known as the Odra-Nysa line.
Tom Parmenter
|From: Mirko Thiessen mt@mirko-thiessen.de |X-Priority: 3 (Normal) |Sender: wikien-l-admin@wikipedia.org |Reply-To: wikien-l@wikipedia.org |Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 17:15:34 +0100 | |Hello all, | | |there is a dispute in several articles, whether the Oder/Odra river |should be called by its German or its Polish name. The same for the |Neisse/Nysa river and the Oder-Neisse line/Odra-Nysa line. I'd like |to ask the community, which name is used more often by native English |speakers. There are some annoying accusations in this dispute (see |[[User talk:Taw|Taw's talk page]] for more details), so I would like |to let the majority decide and end the seesaw changes on the relating |pages. | | |Mirko. | |-- |Mirko Thiessen |http://www.mirko-thiessen.de | | |_______________________________________________ |WikiEN-l mailing list |WikiEN-l@wikipedia.org |http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l |
On Tue, 18 Feb 2003, Tom Parmenter wrote:
The Oder-Niesse line is very well known by that name in the United States. Of course, what it is known for is marking the border between Poland and Germany, established as such at the end of World War II, so it is natural that Polish people are sensitive about it. Nonetheless, it is not known as the Odra-Nysa line.
In other words, we should expect a number of edit wars between German chauvinists & Polish chauvinists to occur over territories that were formerly part of Germany for the foreseeable future?
I've peaked at the disagreements over the content of the Danzig article, & have to admit that I was scared off: one's ability to do research to get to the bottom of a disagreement is very limited over a dial-up connection.
Geoff
From: Geoff Burling llywrch@agora.rdrop.com Reply-To: wikien-l@wikipedia.org Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 21:31:46 -0800 (PST) To: wikien-l@wikipedia.org Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] River names Oder/Odra and Neisse/Nysa
On Tue, 18 Feb 2003, Tom Parmenter wrote:
The Oder-Niesse line is very well known by that name in the United States. Of course, what it is known for is marking the border between Poland and Germany, established as such at the end of World War II, so it is natural that Polish people are sensitive about it. Nonetheless, it is not known as the Odra-Nysa line.
In other words, we should expect a number of edit wars between German chauvinists & Polish chauvinists to occur over territories that were formerly part of Germany for the foreseeable future?
No, we should not put up with either bunch.
Fred
I've peaked at the disagreements over the content of the Danzig article, & have to admit that I was scared off: one's ability to do research to get to the bottom of a disagreement is very limited over a dial-up connection.
Geoff
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@wikipedia.org http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l