I am going to make strong pleas against any moves to ban RK or marginalize him. While I�m not arguing that we tolerate his bad behavior in the short-run, it is crucial that we tolerate having to deal with, and act against, his bad behavior instance by instance in the long-run. To sum up my argument, RK�s bad behavior is an indispensable asset for Wikipedia.
Yes, his tendency to overreact, aggressiveness, and lack of ability to channel disputes into a more substantive debate, rather than an all-out personal conflict, is confounding his difficulties with other users, underlying this conflict is the nature of the articles on which he has been working. On Wikipedia his fields of interest (Israel, Judaism, and anti-Semitism) inherently attract a polarized core of contributors, which pits committed supporters of Israel against pro-Palestinian advocates.
Of course, certain practices and behavior are better at channeling them toward cooperation. Although I did say that his personality is at the heart of this whole attempt to ban you, the dynamics of his edit wars mean that he has to act as he does! While other topics polarize as well, the ideology of the extremists on both sides, along with their ingrained prejudices against each other, discourages them from yielding any concessions to each other. Moreover, it encourages both sides to seek to prevail at all cost, and escalate the conflict into a zero-sum game. Since both sides are too fearful of the aims of the other, RK is always forced not to retreat and make concessions to the other side (that might be his personality, but the often raving lunacy of his crudades is means of putting checks and balances on his opponents in the long-run).
Although he can be paranoid irrational at times, and he�s raving and not strategizing, his aggressiveness is well-suited in that it might be the only pattern of behavior that will work for him. Moreover, since he is almost always outnumbered in any dispute, he naturally has to lodge just as many salvoes, and make just as much noise, as many users put together.
The fair-minded users who favor his banning ignore one the only fact that matters: the end result of most of his edit wars has been neutrality. There's a lot of noise, but everything's fine afterwards. Wikipedia needs his forceful dedication to his side of the issues.
RK and RK alone provides a counterweight to large number of contributors, and determines whether or not his side is equally powerful (despite being under-represented in terms of the number of contributors) in each edit war. Right now, we have a �balance of power� on the Israeli-Palestinian articles that yields stalemate in edit-war after edit-war. Thus, Wikipedia gets the quality of writing, accuracy, balance, and neutrality needed for to emerge as a viable sourcebook.
Thus, even if he did do something that warrants a banning, Wikipedia needs to accept his actions at all cost in order to maintain balance on the articles on the Israeli-Palestinian articles.
His absence would mean that conflict would ease considerably over the Israeli-Palestinian issue, thus meaning that they written at a far faster rate by the remaining users. But that would be the result of a terrible development.
This would be at the cost of allowing his antagonists to achieve an all-out victory, and be able to exercise such a degree of control over the articles that there would only be a fa�ade of neutrality. While I did not reach this conclusion when I was subjected to my first RK experience (disagreeing with him isn�t pleasant), I now realize that his absence would be a crushing blow to Wikipedia, an unprecedented experiment whose success is not a foregone conclusion.
The dynamics of the disputes on Wikipedia that arise over the Israeli-Palestinian issue mean that neutrality is only going to be attained when both sides are finished terrorizing and brutalizing each other, after a zero-sum battle has ended in a stalemate. If RK weren�t here, that would mean that the other side would consistently win. RK�s role as the lose cannon on the Israel-related articles - always suspicious, prickly, and aggressive � bolsters the influence of his side of the issues. You cannot deny that RK has steered dozens of articles toward an orientation further from that of his antagonists. He often starts off adding grotesquely POV content, but that�s toned down after a fierce battle with his ever-observant opponents. Although his opponents are more subtle in slanting articles, there are more of them, and other users usually have no sympathy for RK. Whereas RK can inject hysterical propaganda in a few articles, many other users can inject subtle biases in many articles. However, fear of RK�s tyranny is a check on them; and when RK mobilizes his energies into a hysterical fit, balance results from the ensuing struggle.
In short, if Wikipedia is to present both sides, it�s contingent on letting RK be RK. He generates chaos and a lot of ill-will. He�s often obnoxious (but he can magnanimously admit that he was wrong � I believe that he took my advice to stop calling a very well-respected user an anti-Semite). He even alienates his own supporters, and often attacks potential allies with great bitterness. But due to the nature of users who are attracted to the Israeli/Palestinian article, the only way to get balance is stalemate after stalemate after stalemated zero-sum conflict between equally powerful and committed groups of antagonists. Among the non-academic partisans who take the time to write about this dispute, the fanatical camps on both sides make it impossible for the two sides to put aside their differences and agree on what a neutral article is. It�s too idealistic to expect them to have the dexterity to cooperate and quit wasting time by sniping at each other. RK�s intransigence, and often flat out bizarre behavior, but it�s an indispensable part of a confluence of opposing forces required for Israeli-Palestinian neutrality.
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Abe Sokolov wrote:
I am going to make strong pleas against any moves to ban RK or marginalize him. While I’m not arguing that we tolerate his bad behavior in the short-run, it is crucial that we tolerate having to deal with, and act against, his bad behavior instance by instance in the long-run. To sum up my argument, RK’s bad behavior is an indispensable asset for Wikipedia.
We shouldn't be tolerating bad behavior at all. If we make the excuse that we have to tolerate it for the sake of content, that's just going to encourage more bad behavior. There are people who have some detailed knowledge of the Israeli Palestinian conflict, a generally neutral point of view, and a commitment to scholarly investigation, myself for instance, but I've generally avoided those articles because Wikipedia is not paying me enough to put up with constant abuse and name-calling by RK. How many other neutrals are not contributing because RK and others have turned that whole area of Wikipedia into a miniaturized version of real life?
Stan
Stan Shebs wrote:
Abe Sokolov wrote:
I am going to make strong pleas against any moves to ban RK or marginalize him. While Im not arguing that we tolerate his bad behavior in the short-run, it is crucial that we tolerate having to deal with, and act against, his bad behavior instance by instance in the long-run. To sum up my argument, RKs bad behavior is an indispensable asset for Wikipedia.
We shouldn't be tolerating bad behavior at all. If we make the excuse that we have to tolerate it for the sake of content, that's just going to encourage more bad behavior. There are people who have some detailed knowledge of the Israeli Palestinian conflict, a generally neutral point of view, and a commitment to scholarly investigation, myself for instance, but I've generally avoided those articles because Wikipedia is not paying me enough to put up with constant abuse and name-calling by RK. How many other neutrals are not contributing because RK and others have turned that whole area of Wikipedia into a miniaturized version of real life?
I read Abe's analysis, and I respectfully disagree with it. If I understand correctly, his thesis is that if RK is allowed to take outrageous positions on Israel/Palestine issues that will be more effective in presenting that view than a large number of moderates. I see that as an endorsation of bully tactics and intimidation.
Nobody likes to be the one to confront an apparent lunatic, or the heavy hulk that's beating his diminutive wife in public. That's a dangerous thing to do But failing to confront these people does not make the world better or safer. If people who would otherwise bring sane and rational opinions to a discussion keep quiet simply to avoid the wrath of an extremist the project has thus been diminished.
Ec
Lots of replies in no particular order
*Anthere wrote:
When has RK been a sysop ?
He hasn't. I think people are confusing him with RickK again. He was nominated for sysophood by Stevertigo but RK refused the nomination.
*Axel wrote:
I have ended the temporary ban on RK.
I don't think that was a good idea. The last thing we need is block/unblock wars. There was a lot of objection to the EofT ban, but it would be very wrong for any sysop to simply go and unblock the account.
*Ray Saintonge wrote:
the mentor could be a person whom RK personally
trusts, and to whom he would pay attention.
I'm not convinced you could find such a person. RK regards all comments to him as personal attacks. All I said to him was that Martin's comment should not be regarded as vandalism and I explained why Martin may have put what he did on RK's page. RK then accused me of being a vandal for having made such a comment.
*172 wrote:
In short, if Wikipedia is to present both sides, its
contingent on letting RK be RK.
No, we can not let RK be RK if this means allowing such abominable behavior. To suggest that Wikipedia can not be NPOV without RK's help is ridiculous. And it's not just the Israeli-Palestinian articles that you mention that he is doing this on.
*Björn Lindqvist wrote:
But I get offended by RK, a countless number of anons
get offended by RK and many contributors have left WP because of RK's antics.
I think this is the part 172 and others are missing. A lot of people complain about RK, but there are doubtless many more people who do not and simply respond by avoiding editing any pages that RK edits (myself for one), or worse leave Wikipedia.
*RK wrote:
Now Martin and Angela are cooperating in vandalizing
my home page
Neither Martin not I have ever edited your user page. Polite comments, suggestions and questions should not be regarded as vandalism.
*Tim Starling wrote:
Eloquence obviously has a different idea of "simple
vandalism" than I do.
This is the danger of blocking anyone. There is no clear guidance on what "simple vandalism" is. The [[Vandalism in progress]] page shows different people have different definitions and sections are often moved from this page to the [[Problem users]] page by those who do not regard something as vandalism. On a related note, I don't understand why the procedure has to be different for IPs and logged in users. If an anon had made those edits they would have been banned immediately and no-one would have objected in the slightest. IPs are frequently blocked for far less. Why should someone be protected simply because they bothered to log in?
*Erik Moeller wrote:
Nobody ganged up on RK. I oppose unbanning him until
he retracts his "Nazipedia" remarks.
I agree on both points.
*Axel Boldt wrote:
The issue could have brought up on the mailing list.
In the past, we have often discussed weeks and weeks before banning long-term Wikipedians.
The issue *was* brought to the mailing list, and to the "problem users" page, and to "RK/ban" and to "Community case RK" and to Meta. He has been discussed ad nauseum and it was about time someone did something about it. He has been given countless chances to reform and he hasn't attempted to in the slightest. I can't see how a temporary ban is going to change his behavior either and I fully support a permanent ban.
Regards,
Angela.
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Angela wrote:
Lots of replies in no particular order
*Anthere wrote:
When has RK been a sysop ?
He hasn't. I think people are confusing him with RickK again. He was nominated for sysophood by Stevertigo but RK refused the nomination.
OK, I had my fact wrong in this issue.
*Ray Saintonge wrote:
the mentor could be a person whom RK personally
trusts, and to whom he would pay attention.
I'm not convinced you could find such a person. RK regards all comments to him as personal attacks.
Obviously, if there is no such person. it can't be made to work
*Bjn Lindqvist wrote:
But I get offended by RK, a countless number of anons
get offended by RK and many contributors have left WP because of RK's antics.
I think this is the part 172 and others are missing. A lot of people complain about RK, but there are doubtless many more people who do not and simply respond by avoiding editing any pages that RK edits (myself for one), or worse leave Wikipedia.
There are people who can't handle any criticism.. I'm sure we've all chased some away. They just go away without a fuss, and without anybody knowing about it. This does not diminish RK's intimidating effects.
*Tim Starling wrote:
Eloquence obviously has a different idea of "simple
vandalism" than I do.
This is the danger of blocking anyone. There is no clear guidance on what "simple vandalism" is. The [[Vandalism in progress]] page shows different people have different definitions and sections are often moved from this page to the [[Problem users]] page by those who do not regard something as vandalism. On a related note, I don't understand why the procedure has to be different for IPs and logged in users. If an anon had made those edits they would have been banned immediately and no-one would have objected in the slightest. IPs are frequently blocked for far less. Why should someone be protected simply because they bothered to log in?
I would define a simple vandal as one who for no particular reason defaces a page with rude words or goatse.cx type images.
*Axel Boldt wrote:
The issue could have brought up on the mailing list.
In the past, we have often discussed weeks and weeks before banning long-term Wikipedians.
The issue *was* brought to the mailing list, and to the "problem users" page, and to "RK/ban" and to "Community case RK" and to Meta. He has been discussed ad nauseum and it was about time someone did something about it. He has been given countless chances to reform and he hasn't attempted to in the slightest. I can't see how a temporary ban is going to change his behavior either and I fully support a permanent ban.
I generally don't visit the other sites; the mailing list alone provides me with more than enough of this type of discussion., but then this isn't the first time that RK has been discussed on the mailing list.
Based on the comments in his departure letter, RK may not want to come back. In that case the entire discussion about banning him is moot.
Ec
Angela wrote:
*Axel Boldt wrote:
The issue could have brought up on the mailing list. In the past, we have often discussed weeks and weeks before banning long-term Wikipedians.
The issue *was* brought to the mailing list, and to the "problem users" page, and to "RK/ban" and to "Community case RK" and to Meta. He has been discussed ad nauseum and it was about time someone did something about it. He has been given countless chances to reform and he hasn't attempted to in the slightest. I can't see how a temporary ban is going to change his behavior either and I fully support a permanent ban.
Maybe I haven't followed all those discussions. Here on the list at least, I have not seen any serious discussion, and certainly nothing approaching a consensus, on banning RK.
As it happens, now serveral people bring arguments for banning him here on the list. I haven't made up my mind, but I want to make up my mind -- I want to discuss first and ban later, not the other way round.
Axel
*Axel wrote:
I have ended the temporary ban on RK.
I don't think that was a good idea. The last thing we need is block/unblock wars. There was a lot of objection to the EofT ban, but it would be very wrong for any sysop to simply go and unblock the account. Regards,
Angela.
The EofT ban and the RK ban were completely different. The EofT ban was discussed and the RK one wasn't even mentioned until he was banned. LDan
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Ray Saintonge wrote:
If I understand correctly, his thesis is that if RK is allowed to take outrageous positions on Israel/Palestine issues that will be more effective in presenting that view than a large number of moderates.
Can you give examples of RK taking outrageous positions on Israel/Palestine issues? I don't think he does, and I don't think that's quite what Abe's point was.
RK is a pretty good NPOV writer. Better than most, I think.
The problem with RK is not that he battles to write absurd things in articles -- the problem with RK is that he's very difficult to work with, and that -- in the current case -- he really stepped over the lines in terms of not treating others with respect and kindness.
Several people have made this claim over time -- that RK is trying to insert blatant propaganda into articles. But the examples that I have seen are very *very* thin, and don't support ANY idea of RK as being out of line with respect to his article edits.
--Jimbo
Jimmy Wales wrote:
Can you give examples of RK taking outrageous positions on Israel/Palestine issues? I don't think he does, and I don't think
that's > quite what Abe's point was.
RK is a pretty good NPOV writer. Better than most, I think.
I intended to keep myself silent in this debate, but this statement was simply too much.
Not everybody who often cries NPOV in recent changes is also a good NPOV writer.
I focus on Islamic topics, not on the Palestine/Israel issues, because I decided not to read anything about this in Wikipedia anymore.
reinserted by RK into the article [[Islam]]
"An infamous example of a Muslim apostate undergoing persecution is that of [[Salman Rushdie]], whose novel [[The Satanic Verses]] prompted furious clerics to issue a [[Fatwa]] for his execution."
Do you consider the words "infamous" and "furious" NPOV? (regardless of the personal opinion one may have about this case)
deleted from the article [[Islam]] by RK:
"Muslims who believe in the "Five Pillars of Islam" may be offended by the mention of a violent sixth pillar." [1]
(BTW, I know personally quite a lot of muslims for whom this statement holds true)
Shall I provide more examples? two more from http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Arabs_and_anti-Semitism&diff... (anonymous IP on left side, RK on the "right" side)
"Unlike Christianity, Muslims sought to conquer the world through force of arms, rather than through conversion. As such, when Muslim armies conquered nations, they felt no special need to force Jews (or Christians) to convert to Islam. Members of other religions, however, were forced to convert, or they were killed"
(If someone doesn't understand why I consider this paragraph so ridiculous, I can provide detailed explanation)
This history page is also a good example for RK doing something he usually accuses others: Deleting facts who are disagreeable to them. Part in brackets deleted by RK.
"These verses are not rhetorical; they refer to the attack by the pagans of Mecca on the city of Medina (also known as Yathrib) where Muhammad was living. [Having signed a treaty with the three Jewish tribes of the city to maintain peace and a unified defence force for the city, Muhammad discovered that when Medina was attacked by the Meccans, the Jewish tribes refused to abide by the treaty they signed. Further, the Jewish outpost of Khyber (which had also signed a peace treaty with Muhammad) joined forces with the Meccans to attack Medina.]"
The problem with RK is not that he battles to write absurd things in
articles -- the problem with RK is that he's very difficult to work with, and that -- in the current case -- he really stepped over the lines in terms of not treating others with respect and kindness.
Not only in the current case. I left the english wikipedia half a year ago because I couldn't stand any more the sight of recent changes where RK was labelling people as vandals, trolls, anti-semites, told them "Wikipedia is no place for you, we don't want you here, go away" and so on.
Several people have made this claim over time -- that RK is trying to
insert blatant propaganda into articles. But the examples that I have seen are very *very* thin,
and very likely to hurt a lot of Muslims deeply in their religious feelings.
If RK's writings correspond to your vision of how NPOV should manifest itself in Wikipedia, I don't regret to have left the english Wikipedia. Sorry for the personal attack -- normally I hold you in a very high esteem -- but your statement made me sad and angry.
greetings, elian.
[1] Wikipedia "The sixth pillar of Islam" gives a really impressing
"History of use" "According to Kenneth R. Timmerman's book, "Preachers of Hate: Islam and the War on America," and his Washington Times article "Truth from the mouths of terrorists" [4] (published June 19, 2003), the sixth pillar of Islam is violent jihad. In Timmerman's words, "Think of it: Murder has become the sixth pillar of Islam, according to the terrorists. Where are the Muslim leaders to denounce this?"
The phrase has also been used by orientalists, and some Muslims, although the meanings plainly can differ widely."
Jimmy Wales wrote:
The problem with RK is not that he battles to write absurd things in articles
actually, it is. See the history of [[Mel Gibson]]. RK had the large majority of that article about Mel's father being a holocaust denier. Which may be true -- but it's imbalanced and not terribly relevant to an article on a has-been C-list film star.
- the problem with RK is that he's very difficult to work
with, and that -- in the current case -- he really stepped over the lines in terms of not treating others with respect and kindness.
well that too.
Not been checking my mail for a couple of days. I am SO glad I missed all this!!!!!