On 20 Nov 2007 at 11:58:16 +0000, "David Gerard" dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
Does anyone have a problem with kicking off people just here to be crappy to others? This is a working list, after all.
I've got some problem with Kamryn getting kicked off in particular; here, she was reacting to a mistaken demand from Durova that she apologize, following this sequence of events:
1) Durova mistakenly posts private e-mail to list, with a subject header calling it "harassing" 2) Kamryn replies, saying that it doesn't seem like harassment (fullquoting the original) 3) Durova admits that this particular message wasn't harassment, per se, but later messages in the sequence (not posted to this list) were; and she insists that Kamryn needs to make a big apology for posting the private message without context and criticizing it (although, unknown to her at the time, it was actually Durova who posted the message to the list out of context, and Kamryn was just responding to it; apparently she had intended to send it privately to somebody else but sent it to the list instead) 4) Soon after, Durova realizes her mistake and retracts the call for apology 5) Kamryn replies to the reply in #3, getting a little snarky in the process 6) You ban her for it.
Now, probably Kamryn should have read the later retraction before reacting, and should have toned things down a little. However, there seems to be an atmosphere of touchiness lately, both on Wikipedia and on this list, where people get easily banned for minor incivility infractions, if they're on the "wrong side" of the heated "culture wars", while people on the other side can get away with almost anything. That doesn't seem fair to me.
On 21/11/2007, Daniel R. Tobias dan@tobias.name wrote:
I've got some problem with Kamryn getting kicked off in particular;
I fear I must say "too bad." Kamryn failed the list. Welcome to wikien-l.
- d.
Dan Tobias wrote:
- Durova mistakenly posts private e-mail to list, with a subject header
calling it "harassing" 2) Kamryn replies, saying that it doesn't seem like harassment (fullquoting the original) ... 4) Soon after, Durova realizes her mistake and retracts the call for apology
That's the way it looked to me, too.
David Gerard wrote:
Welcome to wikien-l.
Where we're arbitrary and capricious and boot people for the mistakes of others?
Then why did you bother asking if anyone cared?
- PeruvianLlama
David Gerard wrote:
On 21/11/2007, Daniel R. Tobias dan@tobias.name wrote:
I've got some problem with Kamryn getting kicked off in particular;
I fear I must say "too bad." Kamryn failed the list. Welcome to wikien-l.
- d.
Sorry, dude, but I think you were in the wrong on this one. It's not a bad idea to have a clear marker for this sort of thing, but Kamryn *was* accused of publishing private mail, had an apology demanded of her for something Durova accidentally did, and yeah, got snarky. I know there are meta reasons that come into play in this particular case, but this probably merited a little less smackdown based on the actual incident.
Thes.
David Gerard wrote:
On 21/11/2007, Daniel R. Tobias dan@tobias.name wrote:
I've got some problem with Kamryn getting kicked off in particular;
I fear I must say "too bad." Kamryn failed the list. Welcome to wikien-l.
- d.
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On 21/11/2007, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
On 21/11/2007, Daniel R. Tobias dan@tobias.name wrote:
I've got some problem with Kamryn getting kicked off in particular;
I fear I must say "too bad." Kamryn failed the list. Welcome to wikien-l.
At the risk of following Kamryn out of the door, may I suggest that you consider your position as a moderator of this list.
On 21/11/2007, James Farrar james.farrar@gmail.com wrote:
At the risk of following Kamryn out of the door, may I suggest that you consider your position as a moderator of this list.
You realise this is a "you want the job, it's yours" move. I suspect we'd like a new female moderator next, FWIW.
- d.
On 21/11/2007, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
On 21/11/2007, James Farrar james.farrar@gmail.com wrote:
At the risk of following Kamryn out of the door, may I suggest that you consider your position as a moderator of this list.
You realise this is a "you want the job, it's yours" move. I suspect we'd like a new female moderator next, FWIW.
Will the Foundation fund the operation? ;-)
Quoting "Daniel R. Tobias" dan@tobias.name:
On 20 Nov 2007 at 11:58:16 +0000, "David Gerard" dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
Does anyone have a problem with kicking off people just here to be crappy to others? This is a working list, after all.
I've got some problem with Kamryn getting kicked off in particular; here, she was reacting to a mistaken demand from Durova that she apologize, following this sequence of events:
- Durova mistakenly posts private e-mail to list, with a subject header
calling it "harassing" 2) Kamryn replies, saying that it doesn't seem like harassment (fullquoting the original) 3) Durova admits that this particular message wasn't harassment, per se, but later messages in the sequence (not posted to this list) were; and she insists that Kamryn needs to make a big apology for posting the private message without context and criticizing it (although, unknown to her at the time, it was actually Durova who posted the message to the list out of context, and Kamryn was just responding to it; apparently she had intended to send it privately to somebody else but sent it to the list instead) 4) Soon after, Durova realizes her mistake and retracts the call for apology 5) Kamryn replies to the reply in #3, getting a little snarky in the process 6) You ban her for it.
Now, probably Kamryn should have read the later retraction before reacting, and should have toned things down a little. However, there seems to be an atmosphere of touchiness lately, both on Wikipedia and on this list, where people get easily banned for minor incivility infractions, if they're on the "wrong side" of the heated "culture wars", while people on the other side can get away with almost anything. That doesn't seem fair to me.
I'm in agreement with Dan on this one. Kamryn's behavior didn't seem nearly ban-worthy compared to some of the lack of civility and personal attacks that occur on this list on a regular basis. Now, if we're going to start banning people for them that's one thing. But at minimum some sort of warning or agreed declaration would be in order before that occurred.
On 21/11/2007, Daniel R. Tobias dan@tobias.name wrote:
Now, probably Kamryn should have read the later retraction before reacting, and should have toned things down a little. However, there seems to be an atmosphere of touchiness lately, both on Wikipedia and on this list, where people get easily banned for minor incivility infractions, if they're on the "wrong side" of the heated "culture wars", while people on the other side can get away with almost anything. That doesn't seem fair to me.
Warning: WR thread!
http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=14040&st=0&p=61369&am...
This should be a working list for the encyclopedia. We have zero future possible wonderful posts to gain from welcoming these people to wikien-l, and they really aren't welcome. Saying that "her crappiness wasn't on the list itself in those few posts" doesn't somehow constitute a technical foul that means she must be let back on. The reason you hear from me so much is that most of the mods don't even read the list any more because it's such a pointless sewer; I'd like to make it not one, rather than just shut down the list (which is also possible).
- d.