Hi all,
I think I've come up with an interim solution to the whole mess regarding [[template:spoiler]]. My theory is that discussion of the tag is never going to reach a consensus as long as the uses of the tag are as diverse as they are. So here's my proposal:
We create new template, say [[template:plotsection]] and [[template:plotend]], and set the text of that template exactly equal to the text of [[template:spoiler]]. We strongly discourage any editing of this template for the next few weeks or so. We then engage in a massive but thoughtful process of moving {{spoiler}} and {{spoiler}} end tags which are used solely to bracket plot sections to use these new templates. Then, only after we have done this, we discuss what to do with the template - delete it, change it, blank it, or leave it exactly as it is. Leaving it would make the exercise pointless, but I doubt it would be chosen. Deleting it would add work compared to deleting it directly, but not a whole lot because this could be done by a bot since the thinking part is already done. Changing it would allow us to have different tags for different situations. And blanking it would be my personal preference, this at least leaves the tag in place for future use (an opt-in message for logged-in users, opt-out for non-logged-in users, or something).
If there are any objections, please let me know here. Barring any strong objections I'm probably just going to start implementing this unilaterally, since I can't think of any reason anyone would object to at least the first step of the plan.
Anthony
On 23/05/07, Anthony wikimail@inbox.org wrote:
I think I've come up with an interim solution to the whole mess regarding [[template:spoiler]]. My theory is that discussion of the tag is never going to reach a consensus as long as the uses of the tag are as diverse as they are. So here's my proposal:
Did you check the proposal at [[Wikipedia:Spoiler]]?
- d.
On 5/23/07, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
On 23/05/07, Anthony wikimail@inbox.org wrote:
I think I've come up with an interim solution to the whole mess
regarding
[[template:spoiler]]. My theory is that discussion of the tag is never going to reach a consensus as long as the uses of the tag are as diverse
as
they are. So here's my proposal:
Did you check the proposal at [[Wikipedia:Spoiler]]?
Not in a few days. Is there any chance it's going to get a consensus support?
On 23/05/07, Anthony wikimail@inbox.org wrote:
On 5/23/07, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
On 23/05/07, Anthony wikimail@inbox.org wrote:
I think I've come up with an interim solution to the whole mess
regarding
[[template:spoiler]]. My theory is that discussion of the tag is never going to reach a consensus as long as the uses of the tag are as diverse
as
they are. So here's my proposal:
Did you check the proposal at [[Wikipedia:Spoiler]]?
Not in a few days. Is there any chance it's going to get a consensus support?
Dunno. Stands a chance. Most of the objection to the actual proposal on the talk page is claims it wasn't written by a process they liked. The rest of the talk page is a rerun of the RFC.
- d.
On Wed, 23 May 2007, David Gerard wrote:
I think I've come up with an interim solution to the whole mess regarding [[template:spoiler]]. My theory is that discussion of the tag is never going to reach a consensus as long as the uses of the tag are as diverse as they are. So here's my proposal:
Did you check the proposal at [[Wikipedia:Spoiler]]?
I did. The proposal states as given a lot of questionable things. For instance, the part saying that plot sections should not be marked with spoiler warnings because plot automatically implies spoiler, when not every plot element is a spoiler, and even if it was, leaving the spoiler warning out just because it's redundant is poor user unterface design.
The proposal also tries to put in some more restrictions that were barely even discussed, such as not putting spoiler tags on articles about fictional characters, which seems to be an attempt to spoil [[Valen]].
On 23/05/07, Ken Arromdee arromdee@rahul.net wrote:
The proposal also tries to put in some more restrictions that were barely even discussed, such as not putting spoiler tags on articles about fictional characters, which seems to be an attempt to spoil [[Valen]].
Uh, yeah. The proposal was written to spoil particular articles. Of course it was.
- d.
On Wed, May 23, 2007 at 04:25:27PM +0100, David Gerard wrote:
Uh, yeah. The proposal was written to spoil particular articles. Of course it was.
{{spoiler}}!!!
David, you're giving away the plot twist!
On 23/05/07, sean@epoptic.com sean@epoptic.com wrote:
On Wed, May 23, 2007 at 04:25:27PM +0100, David Gerard wrote:
Uh, yeah. The proposal was written to spoil particular articles. Of course it was.
{{spoiler}}!!! David, you're giving away the plot twist!
The article is beating *itself* up. And is dead. And a guy. And is made of PEOPLE!
- d.
On Wed, May 23, 2007 at 06:12:46PM +0100, David Gerard wrote:
On 23/05/07, sean@epoptic.com sean@epoptic.com wrote:
On Wed, May 23, 2007 at 04:25:27PM +0100, David Gerard wrote:
Uh, yeah. The proposal was written to spoil particular articles. Of course it was.
{{spoiler}}!!! David, you're giving away the plot twist!
The article is beating *itself* up. And is dead. And a guy. And is made of PEOPLE!
And has married his own mother. Who won't have sex with him until he stops the edit war.
Just don't tell them that when she gets into the car that night, hiding the back seat is an insane {{spoiler}}....
Are you sure there isn't consensus to remove spoiler tags from plot summaries? I haven't seen many people saying it's a bad idea.
On Wed, 23 May 2007, Thomas Dalton wrote:
Are you sure there isn't consensus to remove spoiler tags from plot summaries? I haven't seen many people saying it's a bad idea.
It's a bad idea. 1) Not everything in a plot summary is a spoiler, so a spoiler warning does actually give information. Or the spoiler may be in the summary, but only near the end. (We probably should reword the spoiler warning to not imply that all plot elements are spoilers, of course). 2) Even if all plot summaries are spoilers, consistency in user interface demands we include the tags, rather than excluding them from certain kinds of sections just because the user can figure it out anyway.
On 5/24/07, Ken Arromdee arromdee@rahul.net wrote:
It's a bad idea.
- Not everything in a plot summary is a spoiler, so a spoiler warning does
actually give information
It doesn't when the tag is used indiscriminately, as at present.
- Even if all plot summaries are spoilers, consistency in user interface
demands we include the tags, rather than excluding them from certain kinds of sections just because the user can figure it out anyway.
Yeah, our writing is messy enough that you never quite know what to expect in any section.
Steve
On 5/23/07, Anthony wikimail@inbox.org wrote:
I think I've come up with an interim solution to the whole mess regarding [[template:spoiler]]. My theory is that discussion of the tag is never going to reach a consensus as long as the uses of the tag are as diverse as they are. So here's my proposal:
I don't know what the "whole mess" is precisely, but if there is violent disagreement about the worst excesses of the tag's use, why not start with an extremely restricted spoiler tag that everyone can agree on. Like, a {{really-bad-spoiler}} whose documentation says "This is only for use for spoilers so bad that a stranger would gnaw off your arm if you said it in public. Ruining the surprise end of an unpublished novel, or the details of unaired TV episodes, for example."
If there is consensus there, then perhaps more spoiler tags could be created for less drastic scenarios. Then at least you would never theoretically end up with {{really-bad-spoiler}} being used in WWII or whatever.
Steve