I know this has probably been beaten to death, but shouldnt Project (or Wikiproject) be a namespace?
-SV
On 2/5/07, stvrtg stvrtg@gmail.com wrote:
I know this has probably been beaten to death, but shouldnt Project (or Wikiproject) be a namespace?
Project: is functionally equivalent to Wikipedia:, as far as our MW setup is concerned.
Kirill
Kirill Lokshin wrote:
On 2/5/07, stvrtg stvrtg@gmail.com wrote:
I know this has probably been beaten to death, but shouldnt Project (or Wikiproject) be a namespace?
Project: is functionally equivalent to Wikipedia:, as far as our MW setup is concerned.
It was an unfortunate ambiguity that developed earlier on. If there was some intention to move "Wikiproject" to its own namespce that might be a good time to change the name. I would suggest something like "Study group"
Ec
On 2/6/07, Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net wrote:
Kirill Lokshin wrote:
On 2/5/07, stvrtg stvrtg@gmail.com wrote:
I know this has probably been beaten to death, but shouldnt Project (or Wikiproject) be a namespace?
Project: is functionally equivalent to Wikipedia:, as far as our MW setup is concerned.
It was an unfortunate ambiguity that developed earlier on. If there was some intention to move "Wikiproject" to its own namespce that might be a good time to change the name. I would suggest something like "Study group"
Ec
Could be done in theory but since I can spell wikipedia I'd rather people didn't mess around with the namspaces unless there is a very good reason. WP should be made into a real namespace mind.
stvrtg wrote:
I know this has probably been beaten to death, but shouldnt Project (or Wikiproject) be a namespace?
WikiProject is a namespace on a few Wikipedias (cs, eu, fr, it, lmo, es). If the English Wikipedia wants it, we'll enable it there too. Personally I could never see the point in having a proliferation of namespaces, but it's not up to me, it's up to the community.
-- Tim Starling
On 2/6/07, Tim Starling tstarling@wikimedia.org wrote:
WikiProject is a namespace on a few Wikipedias (cs, eu, fr, it, lmo, es). If the English Wikipedia wants it, we'll enable it there too. Personally I could never see the point in having a proliferation of namespaces, but it's not up to me, it's up to the community.
Cool! How about just "Project" ( in imitation of "portal" ). Dunno about WP, Geni.
-SV
stvrtg wrote:
On 2/6/07, Tim Starling tstarling@wikimedia.org wrote:
WikiProject is a namespace on a few Wikipedias (cs, eu, fr, it, lmo, es). If the English Wikipedia wants it, we'll enable it there too. Personally I could never see the point in having a proliferation of namespaces, but it's not up to me, it's up to the community.
Cool! How about just "Project" ( in imitation of "portal" ). Dunno about WP, Geni.
As Kirill Lokshin noted, Project is taken already. You can't have it.
-- Tim Starling
On 2/6/07, Tim Starling tstarling@wikimedia.org wrote:
As Kirill Lokshin noted, Project is taken already. You can't have it.
Ah, but you must mean "the community cant have it" ;)
I had thought Kirill was making some kind of epistemological point about "functional equivalency" - ie. semantics not syntax - as you apparently refer.
Since you raised the point ... the question that comes to mind is... why?
-SV
On 06/02/07, stvrtg stvrtg@gmail.com wrote:
On 2/6/07, Tim Starling tstarling@wikimedia.org wrote:
As Kirill Lokshin noted, Project is taken already. You can't have it.
Ah, but you must mean "the community cant have it" ;)
I had thought Kirill was making some kind of epistemological point about "functional equivalency" - ie. semantics not syntax - as you apparently refer.
Since you raised the point ... the question that comes to mind is... why?
Most MediaWiki installations are used for non-Wikipedia purposes; you need a good default name for the "project namespace", and "Project:" is as good as any. Effectively, "Wikipedia:" is just the local renaming for "Project:" in the same way that de.wikipedia (to pick a random example) has a local renaming of "User:" as "Benutzer:"
Try looking at [[Project:Help desk]] - it treats it identically to [[Wikipedia:Help desk]]. This sort of trick is very useful on mediawiki installations where you don't know the language, incidentally - "User:XXX" and "User talk:XXX" will always get you where you want to go.
On 2/6/07, Tim Starling tstarling@wikimedia.org wrote:
stvrtg wrote:
I know this has probably been beaten to death, but shouldnt Project (or Wikiproject) be a namespace?
WikiProject is a namespace on a few Wikipedias (cs, eu, fr, it, lmo, es). If the English Wikipedia wants it, we'll enable it there too. Personally I could never see the point in having a proliferation of namespaces, but it's not up to me, it's up to the community.
Frankly, I don't see the point. WikiProjects are a type of Wikipedia-internal group/process/guideline-development area/whatnot, just as everything else in the Wikipedia: namespace is; trying to split them out seems artificial. We'd wind up with, for example, the central peer review page sitting in one namespace, but the WikiProject's peer reviews in another. I can't really see any benefits here.
(As a practical point, the amount of work needed to move everything to a new namespace is staggering; it's not something to be done on a whim.)
Kirill
On 2/6/07, Kirill Lokshin kirill.lokshin@gmail.com wrote:
(As a practical point, the amount of work needed to move everything to a new namespace is staggering; it's not something to be done on a whim.)
Sysadmins could probably be persuaded to mass-move all Wikipedia:WikiProject X to WikiProject:X via maintenance script. Or a bot could do it.
On 2/6/07, Simetrical Simetrical+wikienl@gmail.com wrote:
On 2/6/07, Kirill Lokshin kirill.lokshin@gmail.com wrote:
(As a practical point, the amount of work needed to move everything to a new namespace is staggering; it's not something to be done on a whim.)
Sysadmins could probably be persuaded to mass-move all Wikipedia:WikiProject X to WikiProject:X via maintenance script. Or a bot could do it.
Yah, but the actual page moves are the trivial part. It's cleaning up everything else (templates, instructions, boilerplate, etc.) that depends on pages being in a certain place that's going to be the time-consuming part. (And it's not something that can be done by a bot, either; it'll require significant work on the part of the actual WikiProjects being moved.)
Kirill
On 2/6/07, Kirill Lokshin kirill.lokshin@gmail.com wrote:
Yah, but the actual page moves are the trivial part. It's cleaning up everything else (templates, instructions, boilerplate, etc.) that depends on pages being in a certain place that's going to be the time-consuming part. (And it's not something that can be done by a bot, either; it'll require significant work on the part of the actual WikiProjects being moved.)
Er, isn't this what redirects are for?
On 2/6/07, Simetrical Simetrical+wikienl@gmail.com wrote:
On 2/6/07, Kirill Lokshin kirill.lokshin@gmail.com wrote:
Yah, but the actual page moves are the trivial part. It's cleaning up everything else (templates, instructions, boilerplate, etc.) that depends on pages being in a certain place that's going to be the time-consuming part. (And it's not something that can be done by a bot, either; it'll require significant work on the part of the actual WikiProjects being moved.)
Er, isn't this what redirects are for?
They're not going to help when people keep on creating stuff at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject ...]] because that's what's being generated by templates or specified in instructions.
Kirill
On 2/6/07, Kirill Lokshin kirill.lokshin@gmail.com wrote:
On 2/6/07, Simetrical Simetrical+wikienl@gmail.com wrote:
On 2/6/07, Kirill Lokshin kirill.lokshin@gmail.com wrote:
Yah, but the actual page moves are the trivial part. It's cleaning up everything else (templates, instructions, boilerplate, etc.) that depends on pages being in a certain place that's going to be the time-consuming part. (And it's not something that can be done by a bot, either; it'll require significant work on the part of the actual WikiProjects being moved.)
Er, isn't this what redirects are for?
They're not going to help when people keep on creating stuff at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject ...]] because that's what's being generated by templates or specified in instructions.
Kirill
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Well, while we're on the topic of namespace, why can't the reference desk be in a different namespace? I doesn't really pertain to wikipedia, so the Help: section or a new mainspace would be a better location.
On 2/6/07, ikiroid ikiroid@gmail.com wrote:
Well, while we're on the topic of namespace, why can't the reference desk be in a different namespace? I doesn't really pertain to wikipedia, so the Help: section or a new mainspace would be a better location.
Because that would lend support to the argument that people are going namespace crazy. Certainly there are practical limits (aside from the technical limits on "Project)" by which a help: namespace doesnt seem unreasonable.
Recall that making a new namespace just serves the purpose of isolating stuff thats meta from the main namespace for the encyclopedia. The idea of dividing up the meta namespace is based in the idea that save keystrokes (like Eskimos vs "Eskimo people") and therefore it will somehow be more appealing and get more use. Whether that is true or not is debatable according to different peoples views about how cost/benefit.
Technically speaking, I think it would look snazzy. -SV
On 2/6/07, Kirill Lokshin kirill.lokshin@gmail.com wrote:
They're not going to help when people keep on creating stuff at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject ...]] because that's what's being generated by templates or specified in instructions.
I assume you mean that there are template-bots which would need re-coding. WP has a large enough workforce that only a little planning for a single coordinated move would be required. Honestly, with the assistance of a banner message, I dont see the whole thing taking less than an hour.
-SV
On 2/6/07, stvrtg stvrtg@gmail.com wrote:
Honestly, with the assistance of a banner message, I dont see the whole thing taking less than an hour.
Or... rather... <more> than an hour. :\
-SV
On 2/6/07, stvrtg stvrtg@gmail.com wrote:
Honestly, with the assistance of a banner message, I dont see the whole thing taking less than an hour.
A message to all of the bot owners on their talk pages and said banner would make the entire process completely painless. A simple coding change such as changing "Wikipedia:WikiProject " to "WikiProject:" is no big deal.
--Mets501
Mets501 wrote:
On 2/6/07, stvrtg stvrtg@gmail.com wrote:
Honestly, with the assistance of a banner message, I dont see the whole thing taking less than an hour.
A message to all of the bot owners on their talk pages and said banner would make the entire process completely painless. A simple coding change such as changing "Wikipedia:WikiProject " to "WikiProject:" is no big deal.
But seriously, why?
-Rich
On 2/6/07, Rich Holton richholton@gmail.com wrote:
But seriously, why?
[[Namespaces]], as any programmer can tell you, are a convenient and novel way to separate different kinds of data - to give indentify a kind of context for the data therin.
On WP, the general principle has been to keep the main free of metadata. Meta stuff traditionally belongs in the Wikipedia: namespace. I suggest the idea because using a separate project namespace might be a way to feature projects to emphasise the idea of getting used to joining and working within certain projects .
With WP growth the need for specialised meta namespaces seems a bit obvious to me - but thats one basic argument. As other wikis have done, maybe you might want to ask why those who have have already done so?
-SV
stvrtg wrote:
On 2/6/07, Rich Holton richholton@gmail.com wrote:
But seriously, why?
[[Namespaces]], as any programmer can tell you, are a convenient and novel way to separate different kinds of data - to give indentify a kind of context for the data therin.
And many of those same programmers will tell you that in practice, namespaces can generate their own nightmare of trying to figure out which namespace things are in this week, and it's often the case that the horrendous namespace structure was imposed by busybody coding-standard-writers who don't actually make any useful contributions to functionality. 1/2 :-)
On WP, the general principle has been to keep the main free of metadata. Meta stuff traditionally belongs in the Wikipedia: namespace. I suggest the idea because using a separate project namespace might be a way to feature projects to emphasise the idea of getting used to joining and working within certain projects .
I work in several wikiprojects, and have yet to hear someone say - "you know, we're really being handicapped by not having our own namespace". Projects have plenty of content problems taking up their attention, they don't need other people coming in and moving their pages around.
Stan
On 2/7/07, Stan Shebs stanshebs@earthlink.net wrote:
And many of those same programmers will tell you that in practice, namespaces can generate their own nightmare of trying to figure out which namespace things are in this week, and it's often the case that the horrendous namespace structure was imposed by busybody coding-standard-writers who don't actually make any useful contributions to functionality. 1/2 :-)
I guess programmers were a bad example. :|
I work in several wikiprojects, and have yet to hear someone say - "you
know, we're really being handicapped by not having our own namespace".
Its not a matter of handicaps, its about facilitation of an annyoying problem of having two "wiki"s in the same title. The extra characters no doubt tax the servers.
-SV
On 2/6/07, stvrtg stvrtg@gmail.com wrote:
Its not a matter of handicaps, its about facilitation of an annyoying problem of having two "wiki"s in the same title. The extra characters no doubt tax the servers.
So in other words - you find typing Wikipedia:WikiProject <xxx> a PITA and want to type Wikiproject:<xxx>. Not entirely an invalid point but I don't think we create namespaces for the purposes of typing convenience. The content of WikiProjects is quite validly within the definition of what the Wikipedia: namespace is supposed to be, so I don't see an issue there. We created Portal: because portals aren't really part of the encyclopedia proper but are content for the users, not for the project, so placing them in Wikipedia: didn't really work. We split Template: from MediaWiki: because templating is different from interface string localization.
It sounds like what you really need are shortcut redirects or something.
-Matt
On 2/7/07, Matthew Brown morven@gmail.com wrote:
So in other words - you find typing Wikipedia:WikiProject <xxx> a PITA and want to type Wikiproject:<xxx>.
Hey, that's my argument, too.
Not entirely an invalid point but I don't think we create namespaces
for the purposes of typing
convenience.
Oh? Why not? How about manageability, memorability etc.
The content of WikiProjects is quite validly within the definition of what the Wikipedia: namespace is supposed to be, so I don't see an issue there. We created Portal: because portals aren't really part of the encyclopedia proper but are content for the users, not for the project, so placing them in Wikipedia: didn't really work. We split Template: from MediaWiki: because templating is different from interface string localization.
WikiProjects are really different to the Wikipedia namespace in general. They're strictly about content. They are strictly divided by theme. They deal very explicitly with actual articles. They provide oversight. They provide people to contact about certain topics (WP:TOL is a frequent "go to" page for identifying wildlife).
Wikipedia: covers a much broader range of topics, like user behaviour, policy, processes such as deletion and creating adminships, and even junk like deleted nonsense, lamest edit wars etc etc. Lots of very much "off-topc" discussion.
They are pretty different.
Steve
On 2/7/07, stvrtg stvrtg@gmail.com wrote:
The extra characters no doubt tax the servers.
The extra characters do not tax the servers.
stvrtg wrote:
[[Namespaces]], as any programmer can tell you, are a convenient and novel way to separate different kinds of data - to give indentify a kind of context for the data therin.
On WP, the general principle has been to keep the main free of metadata. Meta stuff traditionally belongs in the Wikipedia: namespace. I suggest the idea because using a separate project namespace might be a way to feature projects to emphasise the idea of getting used to joining and working within certain projects .
With WP growth the need for specialised meta namespaces seems a bit obvious to me
- but thats one basic argument. As other wikis have done, maybe you might
want to ask why those who have have already done so?
If I understand your arguments correctly, your main reason is to emphasize the existence of projects so people get used to working within them.
Other ideas you mention: -because namespaces are novel -because namespaces are useful in separating data types -because as the size of Wikipedia grows, the need for more namespaces is obvious -because other wikis have created multiple namespaces
(I'm not sure what to make of your "as any programmer can tell you..." lead in. If you're suggesting that any programmer would immediately agree with you, I can tell you that you are incorrect. I have over 15 years of professional programming experience, and am all too familiar with the idea, especially common among programmers, that "if a feature exists, we must use it.")
Of your reasoning, the only one that seems to have any validity is the idea that having a separate namespace will draw attention to projects and encourage people to work in them. However, I don't really see how that will be true.
-Rich Holton
On 2/6/07, Tim Starling tstarling@wikimedia.org wrote:
If the English Wikipedia wants it, we'll enable it there too. Personally I could never see the point in having a proliferation of namespaces, but it's not up to me, it's up to the community.
In this case, it would make life easier: Wikiproject:Beer rather than Wikipedia:WikiProject beer (note the capital P). We effectively have a double namespace now: Wikipedia:WikiProject, which is pretty annoying.
Steve