Hephaestos wrote:
In light of the fact that the Arbitration Committee is quite willing to censure me and others for having the audacity to do the job they refuse to do, over any objections we may have, I don't think they are being taken seriously.
On the other hand, if I were to change my handle to GreezyTroll and start spewing nonsense about "cabal" and "GFDL corpus", and inserting "faggot" into every other article, I think my objections would be taken quite seriously. In the name of "fairness" or somesuch.
Wikipedia is suffering from a classic case of looking for the house keys under the street light. There is an inability, or perhaps refusal, to recognize trolling. On the other hand, it,s very easy to spot admins who are breaking rules.
RickK wrote:
Sorry, but I will continue to do what needs to be done, and I hope, Heph, that you will, too.
Hephaestos wrote:
Why should we, when our help is so clearly not wanted?
For the record: -I- want your help. I consider WP a serious project -- that means the current troll-pandering has to stop.
Hephaestos, you rock, and RickK, so do you. Keep up the good work.
For what it,s worth -- Robert Dodier (Wile E. Heresiarch)
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Perhaps the inability or refusal to deal with this 'problem' is that there really isn't much of a problem? Mark
--- Robert Dodier robert_dodier@yahoo.com wrote:
Hephaestos wrote:
In light of the fact that the Arbitration
Committee is
quite willing to censure me and others for having
the
audacity to do the job they refuse to do, over any
objections
we may have, I don't think they are being taken
seriously.
On the other hand, if I were to change my handle
to
GreezyTroll and start spewing nonsense about
"cabal" and
"GFDL corpus", and inserting "faggot" into every
other article,
I think my objections would be taken quite
seriously. In the
name of "fairness" or somesuch.
Wikipedia is suffering from a classic case of looking for the house keys under the street light. There is an inability, or perhaps refusal, to recognize trolling. On the other hand, it,s very easy to spot admins who are breaking rules.
RickK wrote:
Sorry, but I will continue to do what needs to be
done,
and I hope, Heph, that you will, too.
Hephaestos wrote:
Why should we, when our help is so clearly not
wanted?
For the record: -I- want your help. I consider WP a serious project -- that means the current troll-pandering has to stop.
Hephaestos, you rock, and RickK, so do you. Keep up the good work.
For what it,s worth -- Robert Dodier (Wile E. Heresiarch)
__________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
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On Mon, 2 Aug 2004 18:40:57 -0700 (PDT), Mark Richards marich712000@yahoo.com wrote:
Perhaps the inability or refusal to deal with this 'problem' is that there really isn't much of a problem? Mark
It's not that there are a lot of trolls everywhere. It's that there are a few trolls everywhere. The same few, even...
I am not sure, but I seriously don't think trolling is a problem.
I have a few question for Rick and Heph and others:
What constitutes trolling?
If so should trolls be banned without a hearing?
Could other users defend a troll without them being called a troll (Like I have)?
Also I understand we are building a encyclopedia...but is there such a thing as Academic freedom on wikipedia (to some extent because i realize this a private project not a public one)?
I don't see trolling to be a problem, I see users that act like vigilantes to be a problem. I've seen some users that claimed to be "free-thinkers" but banned people without a hearing from the Arb. committee. I've seen users that claimed to be Liberals, but where ultra-reactionary in banning practices and are no better than the people they criticize. Now I never once said they're was a "cabal" but what I am saying is that I believe in FREEDOM.
Nick T. Riche Aka User:Plato
Mark Richards marich712000@yahoo.com wrote: Perhaps the inability or refusal to deal with this 'problem' is that there really isn't much of a problem? Mark
--- Robert Dodier wrote:
Hephaestos wrote:
In light of the fact that the Arbitration
Committee is
quite willing to censure me and others for having
the
audacity to do the job they refuse to do, over any
objections
we may have, I don't think they are being taken
seriously.
On the other hand, if I were to change my handle
to
GreezyTroll and start spewing nonsense about
"cabal" and
"GFDL corpus", and inserting "faggot" into every
other article,
I think my objections would be taken quite
seriously. In the
name of "fairness" or somesuch.
Wikipedia is suffering from a classic case of looking for the house keys under the street light. There is an inability, or perhaps refusal, to recognize trolling. On the other hand, it,s very easy to spot admins who are breaking rules.
RickK wrote:
Sorry, but I will continue to do what needs to be
done,
and I hope, Heph, that you will, too.
Hephaestos wrote:
Why should we, when our help is so clearly not
wanted?
For the record: -I- want your help. I consider WP a serious project -- that means the current troll-pandering has to stop.
Hephaestos, you rock, and RickK, so do you. Keep up the good work.
For what it,s worth -- Robert Dodier (Wile E. Heresiarch)
Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
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You, for one, are a troll, and as such, do not deserve a discussion.
RickK
"N.T. Riche" vonriche@yahoo.com wrote: I am not sure, but I seriously don't think trolling is a problem.
I have a few question for Rick and Heph and others:
What constitutes trolling?
If so should trolls be banned without a hearing?
Could other users defend a troll without them being called a troll (Like I have)?
Also I understand we are building a encyclopedia...but is there such a thing as Academic freedom on wikipedia (to some extent because i realize this a private project not a public one)?
I don't see trolling to be a problem, I see users that act like vigilantes to be a problem. I've seen some users that claimed to be "free-thinkers" but banned people without a hearing from the Arb. committee. I've seen users that claimed to be Liberals, but where ultra-reactionary in banning practices and are no better than the people they criticize. Now I never once said they're was a "cabal" but what I am saying is that I believe in FREEDOM.
Nick T. Riche Aka User:Plato
Mark Richards marich712000@yahoo.com wrote: Perhaps the inability or refusal to deal with this 'problem' is that there really isn't much of a problem? Mark
--- Robert Dodier wrote:
Hephaestos wrote:
In light of the fact that the Arbitration
Committee is
quite willing to censure me and others for having
the
audacity to do the job they refuse to do, over any
objections
we may have, I don't think they are being taken
seriously.
On the other hand, if I were to change my handle
to
GreezyTroll and start spewing nonsense about
"cabal" and
"GFDL corpus", and inserting "faggot" into every
other article,
I think my objections would be taken quite
seriously. In the
name of "fairness" or somesuch.
Wikipedia is suffering from a classic case of looking for the house keys under the street light. There is an inability, or perhaps refusal, to recognize trolling. On the other hand, it,s very easy to spot admins who are breaking rules.
RickK wrote:
Sorry, but I will continue to do what needs to be
done,
and I hope, Heph, that you will, too.
Hephaestos wrote:
Why should we, when our help is so clearly not
wanted?
For the record: -I- want your help. I consider WP a serious project -- that means the current troll-pandering has to stop.
Hephaestos, you rock, and RickK, so do you. Keep up the good work.
For what it,s worth -- Robert Dodier (Wile E. Heresiarch)
Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
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N.T. Riche wrote:
I am not sure, but I seriously don't think trolling is a problem.
Just in case others don't know, Nick is User:Plato who is an express advocate for trolling via his concept of the "red faction". His user page currently reads "To be a troll is not a shameful thing; we troll for peace, justice, liberty, and righteousness! Down with the cabal! Down with those who oppose the people! We will not stop until There Is Not Cabal!!!!!!"
Nick has at least dropped his goal of "violent overthrow" of the "Wiki-police state".
I have a few question for Rick and Heph and others:
What constitutes trolling?
I would say that your red faction page is a very good example. That most people just ignore it is a testament to the infinite patience and goodwill of the community.
If so should trolls be banned without a hearing?
I don't see that anyone has ever seriously suggested such a thing. We are well aware of many complex issues involved here.
Could other users defend a troll without them being called a troll (Like I have)?
Isn't that pretty disingenuous? I think the reason people call you a troll is that you *are* a troll, a self-admitted one who seems to delight in the concept of disruptive people organizing themselves.
I don't see trolling to be a problem, I see users that act like vigilantes to be a problem. I've seen some users that claimed to be "free-thinkers" but banned people without a hearing from the Arb. committee. I've seen users that claimed to be Liberals, but where ultra-reactionary in banning practices and are no better than the people they criticize. Now I never once said they're was a "cabal" but what I am saying is that I believe in FREEDOM.
You never once said that there was a cabal? That's just false, it says "down with the cabal" and a ton of other stupid nonsense right there on your user pages.
--Jimbo
Actually I have said so. Folks who declare an intent to be disruptive will reliably go on to be disruptive and damage will occur. There is no real need to wait while they do their thing.
Fred
From: "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" jwales@wikia.com Reply-To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@Wikipedia.org Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 23:09:17 -0700 To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@Wikipedia.org Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Where are all the trolls?
If so should trolls be banned without a hearing?
I don't see that anyone has ever seriously suggested such a thing. We are well aware of many complex issues involved here.
Fred Bauder wrote:
Actually I have said so. Folks who declare an intent to be disruptive will reliably go on to be disruptive and damage will occur. There is no real need to wait while they do their thing.
O.k., well I had a different meaning in mind for "without a hearing". A temporary ban on someone who is being disruptive should be followed by some kind of formal hearing.
If I understood Nick correctly, he was raising the absurd strawman argument that there is no middle ground between letting trolls do as they please versus just getting rid of due process altogether. Maybe I misunderstood him, but he is a self-described troll out to disrupt the site, so I think it's pretty safe to assume that he's going to accuse people of things that they never advocated.
I remember when he was telling people in IRC that I had decided to leave the project, for example.
--Jimbo
"Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" jwales@wikia.com wrote: Fred Bauder wrote:
Actually I have said so. Folks who declare an intent to be disruptive will reliably go on to be disruptive and damage will occur. There is no real need to wait while they do their thing.
O.k., well I had a different meaning in mind for "without a hearing". A temporary ban on someone who is being disruptive should be followed by some kind of formal hearing.
If I understood Nick correctly, he was raising the absurd strawman argument that there is no middle ground between letting trolls do as they please versus just getting rid of due process altogether.
Not true jimbo, all I want is some due process, I understand that this is private project, and that we are building an ecyclopedia so our standrands are different from Government, or publicly help Corps.
Maybe I misunderstood him, but he is a self-described troll out to disrupt the site, so I think it's pretty safe to assume that he's going to accuse people of things that they never advocated.
I told you before jimbo I suffer from [[Bi-Poler Disorder]] (not an appeal to pity, sometimes I seriously am a different person w/o my Prozac). I do engage (at times) what might be considered bad behaveior but it's because I haven't taken my medicine. Jimbo I don't want to bother anyone, but my bad side tells me to "Troll, Troll, Troll, Keep the red faction page F--k with them!!" I understand Rick's and your opinion's, and I am seeing a shink so I will improve! :)
I remember when he was telling people in IRC that I had decided to leave the project, for example.
I seriously thought you where leaving because I misread an e-mail, actually I wouldn't like it if you left.
--Jimbo
I really wish to thank everyone who has been kind to me on this site, becuase my bad side has been getting weaker thanks to you!
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N.T. Riche wrote:
I really wish to thank everyone who has been kind to me on this site, becuase my bad side has been getting weaker thanks to you!
Fine, well, I wish you the all the best. Perhaps you could do one small gesture of kindness and remove all that stuff advocating trolling from your user pages? It'll only take a second.
--Jimbo
You mean my red faction page. deal.
"Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" jwales@wikia.com wrote: N.T. Riche wrote:
I really wish to thank everyone who has been kind to me on this site, becuase my bad side has been getting weaker thanks to you!
Fine, well, I wish you the all the best. Perhaps you could do one small gesture of kindness and remove all that stuff advocating trolling from your user pages? It'll only take a second.
--Jimbo _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
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On 3 Aug 2004, at 6:56 pm, N.T. Riche wrote:
Now I never once said they're was a "cabal"
[[User:Plato/red_faction]]
Hail to the Red Faction! If we are trolls; then, so be it! To be a troll is not a shameful thing; we troll for peace, justice, liberty, and righteousness! Down with the cabal! Down with those who oppose the people! We will not stop until There Is No Cabal!!!!!! *crowd goes wild*
Christiaan