Hi all, Do content policies still get discussed on this list? I'm a bit out of touch.
Anyway, I seem to keep running afoul of the "image use policy". Several galleries that I've added to articles have been removed. (And see this response to my second attempt to gallerise one article: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Stevage&action=edit%... )
The key parts of the policy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IG#Image_galleries) are:
* "Articles consisting entirely or primarily of galleries are discouraged, as the Commons is intended for such collections of images." -- it's not clear whether this includes articles that currently lack text (as opposed to articles that could never be much more than a gallery) * "However, Wikipedia is not an image repository. A gallery is not a tool to shoehorn images into an article, and a gallery consisting of an indiscriminate collection of images of the article subject should generally either be improved in accordance with the above paragraph or moved to Wikimedia Commons." -- It's not clear what "moving...a gallery...to Wikimedia Commons" means. It sounds like this was intended for cases where the images existed only in Wikipedia itself, rather than being linked from Commons.
On the other hand: * "The images in the gallery collectively must have encyclopedic value and add to the reader's understanding of the subject. Images in a gallery should be suitably captioned to explain their relevance both to the article subject and to the theme of the gallery"
So, here's my thinking in response to the above: 1) "Wikipedia is not for images, Commons is for images" is just bad logic. Commons is a dumping ground for *all* images. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, and should illustrate its articles with as many or as few images as appropriate. (It's not like duplicated storage is a problem.) 2) The Commons links are incredibly obscure, and I don't think the average punter ever sees or visits them. It's like telling someone to ring the hotline for more information - they just don't. The link doesn't give any indication whether there are 2 images on Commons on 200. 3) Galleries let you illustrate a much wider range of the subject matter than by simply placing images in the margins. For example, in the contentious [[Lamington National Park]], we could illustrate all the waterfalls, most of the important flora, fauna, and geological features. 4) An image of captioned animals under a section entitled "fauna" (and likewise for flora etc) seems perfectly in keeping with the guideline under ("on the other hand") above.
Thoughts? Comments? Am I on the fringe? Are guidelines like this still subject to debate and change?
Steve
"Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, and should illustrate its articles with as many or as few images as appropriate." seems right.
Fred
Hi all, Do content policies still get discussed on this list? I'm a bit out of touch.
Anyway, I seem to keep running afoul of the "image use policy". Several galleries that I've added to articles have been removed. (And see this response to my second attempt to gallerise one article: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Stevage&action=edit%... )
The key parts of the policy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IG#Image_galleries) are:
- "Articles consisting entirely or primarily of galleries are
discouraged, as the Commons is intended for such collections of images." -- it's not clear whether this includes articles that currently lack text (as opposed to articles that could never be much more than a gallery)
- "However, Wikipedia is not an image repository. A gallery is not a
tool to shoehorn images into an article, and a gallery consisting of an indiscriminate collection of images of the article subject should generally either be improved in accordance with the above paragraph or moved to Wikimedia Commons." -- It's not clear what "moving...a gallery...to Wikimedia Commons" means. It sounds like this was intended for cases where the images existed only in Wikipedia itself, rather than being linked from Commons.
On the other hand:
- "The images in the gallery collectively must have encyclopedic value
and add to the reader's understanding of the subject. Images in a gallery should be suitably captioned to explain their relevance both to the article subject and to the theme of the gallery"
So, here's my thinking in response to the above:
- "Wikipedia is not for images, Commons is for images" is just bad
logic. Commons is a dumping ground for *all* images. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, and should illustrate its articles with as many or as few images as appropriate. (It's not like duplicated storage is a problem.) 2) The Commons links are incredibly obscure, and I don't think the average punter ever sees or visits them. It's like telling someone to ring the hotline for more information - they just don't. The link doesn't give any indication whether there are 2 images on Commons on 200. 3) Galleries let you illustrate a much wider range of the subject matter than by simply placing images in the margins. For example, in the contentious [[Lamington National Park]], we could illustrate all the waterfalls, most of the important flora, fauna, and geological features. 4) An image of captioned animals under a section entitled "fauna" (and likewise for flora etc) seems perfectly in keeping with the guideline under ("on the other hand") above.
Thoughts? Comments? Am I on the fringe? Are guidelines like this still subject to debate and change?
Steve
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On 2/18/13, Steve Bennett stevagewp@gmail.com wrote:
Thoughts? Comments? Am I on the fringe? Are guidelines like this still subject to debate and change?
It's a tricky one. I favour more image use, not less, but then I work with images a lot (outside Wikipedia), so I'm kind of biased there. I do think that galleries that are large and purely illustrative are not really suitable for Wikipedia. Commons *categories* are not the equivalent of Wikipedia galleries, but you can create *pages* on Commons that you can arrange into galleries and divide into sections and annotate as needed. I do think that a section or article paragraph on (say) waterfalls in a National Park known for having many waterfalls could have a limited gallery of a few waterfalls, but something showing *all* of them would either have to be part of a standalone article, or a wikibook on the topic, or a Commons page, and you should be able to link all three directly from the article section, rather than hiding the link away down the bottom of the article. It is mainly a question of layout and placement and context, and can sometimes require creative thinking. The key is always to make the reader *aware* that image-rich resources are available, but not to shove the images in their faces. Give the reader options, but don't force-feed them. It is also a progression from summaries to the more detailed. If you are at the overview level, don't overwhelm things with images. But make sure that the reader can, if they want, easily drill down to the more detailed levels where more pictures are used (even if those levels are on other sites).
Carcharoth
On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Carcharoth carcharothwp@googlemail.com wrote:
It's a tricky one. I favour more image use, not less, but then I work with images a lot (outside Wikipedia), so I'm kind of biased there. I
Yeah, I wonder if there is equally a pro-text/anti-image bias amongst some editors?
(Me, I love images for skim reading - get a quick impression of a subject without having to read every word.)
do think that galleries that are large and purely illustrative are not really suitable for Wikipedia.
Honest question: what does "illustrative" mean in this context? Any image is "illustrating" something. Are you distinguishing between decoration (say, lots of pretty pictures of similar things) and adding information?
Commons *categories* are not the equivalent of Wikipedia galleries, but you can create *pages* on Commons that you can arrange into galleries and divide into sections and annotate as needed.
True, but putting effort into crafting such galleries on Commons seems...misplaced. I care about the encyclopaedia. And no one has ever heard of Commons. And no one ever goes there to find out more about a subject. Ever.
I do think that a section or article paragraph on (say) waterfalls in a National Park known for having many waterfalls could have a limited gallery of a few waterfalls, but something showing *all* of them would either have to be part of a standalone article, or a wikibook on the topic, or a Commons page, and you should be able to link all three directly from the article section, rather than hiding the link away down the bottom of the article.
Well I think there's only half a dozen or so in that national park. And there are only photos of two. (And excellent photos at that.)
It is mainly a question of layout and placement and context, and can sometimes require creative thinking. The key is always to make the reader *aware* that image-rich resources are available, but not to shove the images in their faces. Give the reader options, but don't force-feed them.
Yep. Wish there were better tools for this. An expanding box with one or two images shown as a teaser would be great.
Steve
lots of pretty pictures of similar things
No
Fred
On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Carcharoth carcharothwp@googlemail.com wrote:
It's a tricky one. I favour more image use, not less, but then I work with images a lot (outside Wikipedia), so I'm kind of biased there. I
Yeah, I wonder if there is equally a pro-text/anti-image bias amongst some editors?
(Me, I love images for skim reading - get a quick impression of a subject without having to read every word.)
do think that galleries that are large and purely illustrative are not really suitable for Wikipedia.
Honest question: what does "illustrative" mean in this context? Any image is "illustrating" something. Are you distinguishing between decoration (say, lots of pretty pictures of similar things) and adding information?
Commons *categories* are not the equivalent of Wikipedia galleries, but you can create *pages* on Commons that you can arrange into galleries and divide into sections and annotate as needed.
True, but putting effort into crafting such galleries on Commons seems...misplaced. I care about the encyclopaedia. And no one has ever heard of Commons. And no one ever goes there to find out more about a subject. Ever.
I do think that a section or article paragraph on (say) waterfalls in a National Park known for having many waterfalls could have a limited gallery of a few waterfalls, but something showing *all* of them would either have to be part of a standalone article, or a wikibook on the topic, or a Commons page, and you should be able to link all three directly from the article section, rather than hiding the link away down the bottom of the article.
Well I think there's only half a dozen or so in that national park. And there are only photos of two. (And excellent photos at that.)
It is mainly a question of layout and placement and context, and can sometimes require creative thinking. The key is always to make the reader *aware* that image-rich resources are available, but not to shove the images in their faces. Give the reader options, but don't force-feed them.
Yep. Wish there were better tools for this. An expanding box with one or two images shown as a teaser would be great.
Steve
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On 18 February 2013 23:24, Steve Bennett stevagewp@gmail.com wrote:
So, here's my thinking in response to the above:
- "Wikipedia is not for images, Commons is for images" is just bad
logic. Commons is a dumping ground for *all* images. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, and should illustrate its articles with as many or as few images as appropriate. (It's not like duplicated storage is a problem.)
However the overall format in the article is considered when considering what is appropriate. Image galleries create large breaks in the text and messy formatting due to issues with screen resolution. As a result there are best limited to where there is a solid need for such things. The other problem with image galleries is that they are often use to keep poor quality images in the article. Certainly when I've expanded articles with image galleries I've often killed of the images in the galleries entirely rather than using them in the article proper.
- The Commons links are incredibly obscure, and I don't think the
average punter ever sees or visits them. It's like telling someone to ring the hotline for more information - they just don't. The link doesn't give any indication whether there are 2 images on Commons on 200.
Not relevant.
- Galleries let you illustrate a much wider range of the subject
matter than by simply placing images in the margins. For example, in the contentious [[Lamington National Park]], we could illustrate all the waterfalls, most of the important flora, fauna, and geological features.
We could but if they were that important it should be possible to include enough text for the image to sit next to the. We also have extensive articles on flora, fauna, and geological features that people can go and look at if they want images of those things.
- An image of captioned animals under a section entitled "fauna" (and
likewise for flora etc) seems perfectly in keeping with the guideline under ("on the other hand") above.
Not really. Again we generally have articles on specific animals so links pointing to the article on that animal will general suffice.
Thoughts? Comments? Am I on the fringe? Are guidelines like this still subject to debate and change?
You can try but you are unlikely to get very far.
On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 12:49 PM, geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
However the overall format in the article is considered when considering what is appropriate. Image galleries create large breaks in the text and messy formatting due to issues with screen resolution. As a result there are best limited to where there is a solid need for such things. The other problem with image galleries is that they are often use to keep poor quality images in the article. Certainly when I've expanded articles with image galleries I've often killed of the images in the galleries entirely rather than using them in the article proper.
Good points - although it's annoying that the weakness of our layout engine affects the content we can display.
- The Commons links are incredibly obscure, and I don't think the
average punter ever sees or visits them. It's like telling someone to ring the hotline for more information - they just don't. The link doesn't give any indication whether there are 2 images on Commons on 200.
Not relevant.
We're not serving our readers well by putting images behind a link that they won't see or use.
- Galleries let you illustrate a much wider range of the subject
matter than by simply placing images in the margins. For example, in the contentious [[Lamington National Park]], we could illustrate all the waterfalls, most of the important flora, fauna, and geological features.
We could but if they were that important it should be possible to include enough text for the image to sit next to the. We also have extensive articles on flora, fauna, and geological features that people can go and look at if they want images of those things.
Indeed - it *is* possible to include enough text. Should the current absence of such text preclude images? (A genuine question: is it ok for an article to be unbalanced in the short term?)
You can try but you are unlikely to get very far.
Yeah, figured.
Steve