---- Jon Awbrey jawbrey@att.net wrote:
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post 8.
response to a friendly off-list message, which i will go ahead and post here in the hopes that a different stroke might work better for different folks. ja.
thanks for the friendly response.
I'm a 50+ year old person with a solid lib arts BA, MA's in math and psych, lots of post-grad study in multiple fields, and years of cross-disciplinary experience as a statistical consultant where i specialized in constructing software and even philosophical bridges between sub-communities of researchers who had all but lost the ability to comprehend each others' ways and motivations.
i understand about high ideals and non-elitism -- I'm a onetime flower-child from a generation of non-elitists.
but WP defeats me, and it's largely because it enforces a regime of dishonest communication, and it's gotten confused about the difference between non-elitism and anti-knowledge-ism.
Jon Awbrey,
Take a break from editing till your batteries are recharged then come back and help fix the problems. Theere is a place for you at Wikipedia. You need to learn the ropes.
Look me up: User:FloNight, a former Register Nurse, mother of three college students and a Wikipedia Administrator. I'll give you some tips on how to deal pov pushing editors and bullies.
Take care, Sydney Poore Georgetown, KY
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sydney,
thanks for the kind thoughts, not to mention the professional health care advice. as it happens, one of the places where i got some of the most valuable experience with "stats in real life" was as a faculty associate in the early 90's doing comp/dat/stat consulting at the school of nursing in galveston (utmb). it was always the greatest "fun" trying to run lines of compunication between the quantitative/epidemiology types and the touchy qualitative researchers.
fill yer bathtub ... big 'cane coming ...
jon awbrey
poore5@adelphia.net wrote:
Take a break from editing till your batteries are recharged then come back and help fix the problems. Theere is a place for you at Wikipedia. You need to learn the ropes.
Look me up: User:FloNight, a former Register Nurse, mother of three college students and a Wikipedia Administrator. I'll give you some tips on how to deal pov pushing editors and bullies.
Take care, Sydney Poore Georgetown, KY
o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o inquiry e-lab: http://stderr.org/pipermail/inquiry/ wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/user:Jon_Awbrey o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o
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sydney,
me again.
since you offered to share some of your experience, i will take the risk of asking for further advice, and take the further risk of discussing it here, in open forum, as that always increases the chance that someone who's afraid to ask might learn from our discussion.
if you've got the time, take a visit at the article on [[Truth]], and especially what's going on at its talk page, as i would be very interested in hearing your observations about what in the devil is going on there.
many regards,
jon awbrey
o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o inquiry e-lab: http://stderr.org/pipermail/inquiry/ wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/user:Jon_Awbrey o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o
On Jun 22, 2006, at 2:04 PM, Jon Awbrey wrote:
o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o if you've got the time, take a visit at the article on [[Truth]], and especially what's going on at its talk page, as i would be very interested in hearing your observations about what in the devil is going on there.
Oh, [[Truth]]! One of the articles-which-are-nearly-all-the-time-in-a-state-of-total-complete- insane-edit-war/massive-blather! It's a highly subtle concept, that *everyone* thinks they know a vast amount about, that there are very few clear, uncontroversial facts about. That's enough to make the devil jump with joy at all the craziness that can be created there. I'm sorry you got sucked in, but it's one of the worst tar pits on the wiki!
Jesse Weinstein
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Jesse W wrote:
Oh, [[Truth]]! One of the articles-which-are-nearly-all-the-time-in-a- state- of-total-complete-insane-edit-war/massive-blather! It's a highly subtle concept, that *everyone* thinks they know a vast amount about, that there are very few clear, uncontroversial facts about. That's enough to make the devil jump with joy at all the craziness that can be created there. I'm sorry you got sucked in, but it's one of the worst tar pits on the wiki!
Jesse Weinstein
''now'' you tell me ...
fly in amber,
ja
o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o inquiry e-lab: http://stderr.org/pipermail/inquiry/ wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/user:Jon_Awbrey o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o
On 6/23/06, Jon Awbrey jawbrey@att.net wrote:
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Jesse W wrote:
Oh, [[Truth]]! One of the articles-which-are-nearly-all-the-time-in-a- state- of-total-complete-insane-edit-war/massive-blather! It's a highly subtle concept, that *everyone* thinks they know a vast amount about, that there are very few clear, uncontroversial facts about. That's enough to make the devil jump with joy at all the craziness that can be created there. I'm sorry you got sucked in, but it's one of the worst tar pits on the wiki!
Jesse Weinstein
''now'' you tell me ...
fly in amber,
ja
o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o inquiry e-lab: http://stderr.org/pipermail/inquiry/ wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/user:Jon_Awbrey o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
TELL ME THE TRUTH!!!!
(sorry I couldn't resist)
On 6/26/06, Pedro Sanchez pdsanchez@gmail.com wrote:
On 6/23/06, Jon Awbrey jawbrey@att.net wrote:
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Jesse W wrote:
Oh, [[Truth]]! One of the articles-which-are-nearly-all-the-time-in-a- state- of-total-complete-insane-edit-war/massive-blather! It's a highly subtle concept, that *everyone* thinks they know a vast amount about, that there are very few clear, uncontroversial facts about. That's enough to make the devil jump with joy at all the craziness that can be created there. I'm sorry you got sucked in, but it's one of the worst tar pits on the wiki!
Jesse Weinstein
''now'' you tell me ...
fly in amber,
ja
o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o inquiry e-lab: http://stderr.org/pipermail/inquiry/ wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/user:Jon_Awbrey o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o
TELL ME THE TRUTH!!!!
(sorry I couldn't resist)
You want the *truth*? You want the TRUTH? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!
~maru hey, if you can...
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maru dubshinki wrote:
TELL ME THE TRUTH!!!!
(sorry I couldn't resist)
You want the *truth*? You want the TRUTH? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!
~maru
hey, if you can ...
the truth is i came to WP to get away from discussion groups, their non-productive going round'n'round the same-old-same-old discursive circles with nobody really listening to each other, in a kind of mass solipsism that is always going nowhere but very noisly, and at first WP was refreshing break from that, as there was always the aim of producing an encycolopedia to focus one's xs energies on. well, it's still possible to find a few places that nobody else cares about, yet, and to work on those isolated gardens of knowledge until the xpressway comes through, bringing the book burners and the brown sock puppets to trample it down into mush. but the problem with that is that the core articles that ought to be in a real encyclopedia are all becoming mush.
and dat's da truth ...
cheers, anyway,
ja
o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o inquiry e-lab: http://stderr.org/pipermail/inquiry/ wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/user:Jon_Awbrey o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o
On 6/27/06, Jon Awbrey jawbrey@att.net wrote:
to focus one's xs energies on. well, it's still possible to find a few places that nobody else cares about, yet,
Yeah, only about 1.15 million of them.
Steve
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okay, i get it, everything is just hunky dory in wikiparadise. do not let the fact that wikipedia wastes expertise the way a bradley fighting vehicle wastes gas trouble you one teeny bit.
don't worry, be happy,
ja
Steve Bennett wrote:
On 6/27/06, Jon Awbrey jawbrey@att.net wrote:
to focus one's xs energies on. well, it's still possible to find a few places that nobody else cares about, yet,
Yeah, only about 1.15 million of them.
Steve
o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o inquiry e-lab: http://stderr.org/pipermail/inquiry/ wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/user:Jon_Awbrey o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o
On 6/27/06, Jon Awbrey jawbrey@att.net wrote:
okay, i get it, everything is just hunky dory in wikiparadise. do not let the fact that wikipedia wastes expertise the way a bradley fighting vehicle wastes gas trouble you one teeny bit.
Don't get me wrong, there are things wrong with Wikipedia, but you don't seem to be particularly effective at identifying them.
Steve
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In a way you are correct, since the things that I have identified so far are only the more superficial symptoms of a condition that I don't think is likely to improve a bit under this regime of defensiveness and denial. Either that, or I'm talking to people who have just been extremely lucky in their own experiences on WikiPedia so far. Or maybe the first attack of the WikiPiranhas and WikiPuppets is just the standard initiation rite of WikiPassage around here, and you're not really interested in the sort of potential contributors who just want off the island after their first encounter with the local Lords of the Flies. It is always possible that some folks just prefer that kind of culture, but it's a culture of waste, and a dynamics like that always eventually catches up, and overtakes you.
Jon Awbrey
Steve Bennett wrote:
On 6/27/06, Jon Awbrey jawbrey@att.net wrote:
okay, i get it, everything is just hunky dory in wikiparadise. do not let the fact that wikipedia wastes expertise the way a bradley fighting vehicle wastes gas trouble you one teeny bit.
Don't get me wrong, there are things wrong with Wikipedia, but you don't seem to be particularly effective at identifying them.
Steve
o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o inquiry e-lab: http://stderr.org/pipermail/inquiry/ wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/user:Jon_Awbrey o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o
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Jon Awbrey stated for the record:
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In a way you are correct, since the things that I have identified so far are only the more superficial symptoms of a condition that I don't think is likely to improve a bit under this regime of defensiveness and denial. &c.
So why are you still here?
- -- Sean Barrett | Fine day to throw a party. sean@epoptic.com | Throw him as far as you can.
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well, i had been planning to go for the guinness book entry for the longest exit interview on record, but then they told me that dubya had a six year head start on me, so i dunno, will just have to play it by ear.
ja
Sean Barrett wrote:
So why are you still here?
o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o inquiry e-lab: http://stderr.org/pipermail/inquiry/ wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/user:Jon_Awbrey o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o
On Jun 28, 2006, at 7:26 PM, Jon Awbrey wrote:
o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o~~~~~~~~~o In a way you are correct, since the things that I have identified so far are only the more superficial symptoms of a condition
Ah; we agree - the things you have identified so far are *not the real problem*. But you haven't yet (at least not in mail that has reached me) said what the real, central, most important "condition" IS. I, for one, would really like to know.
Historically, the typical ones have been 1) Wikipedia is too leveling - i.e. to work on Wikipedia you have to deal with too many idiots. 2) Wikipedia is secretly run by some evil group. 3) Something else. I suspect your view of the problem is more in the direction of the first one, but I'd really like to hear it directly from you. I've asked for this before, as anyone reviewing this thread can easily observe.
Jesse Weinstein
P.S.
that I don't think is likely to improve a bit under this regime of defensiveness and denial.
You may be right, but getting a clear statement of just *what* you think the "condition" is into the archives is a good thing anyway.