Seriously, I mean specially trained individuals with a rolodex of emergency contacts/and who are peace officers.
----- Original Message ---- From: Chris Howie cdhowie@gmail.com To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 8:44:58 PM Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] threats of violence
On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 11:31 PM, Geoffrey Plourde geo.plrd@yahoo.com wrote:
We should have a special unit to deal with these.
Some people call it the FBI. :)
Some people call it the police.
On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 10:28 PM, Geoffrey Plourde geo.plrd@yahoo.com wrote:
Seriously, I mean specially trained individuals with a rolodex of emergency contacts/and who are peace officers.
----- Original Message ---- From: Chris Howie cdhowie@gmail.com To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 8:44:58 PM Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] threats of violence
On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 11:31 PM, Geoffrey Plourde geo.plrd@yahoo.com wrote:
We should have a special unit to deal with these.
Some people call it the FBI. :)
-- Chris Howie http://www.chrishowie.com http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Crazycomputers
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I'm not aware of anyone who admits to being a peace officer who contributes, though I'm sure some are out there. Assuming that they're near email when we need them is unwise.
In terms of contacts... how big a rolodex did you have in mind? There are tens of thousands of police agencies in the US alone. Nobody actually maintains such a list.
Law enforcement agencies can send each other electronic alerts these days, and are perfectly happy for you to report something happening in a remote location to your own local agency and have them forward the report over.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Responding_to_threats_of_harm
We already encourage anyone who thinks there's a credible threat of violence or suicide to report it to authorities (either local to the threat, or to them), and also ANI so that others can take a look an help if justified.
-george
On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 9:28 PM, Geoffrey Plourde geo.plrd@yahoo.com wrote:
Seriously, I mean specially trained individuals with a rolodex of emergency contacts/and who are peace officers.
----- Original Message ---- From: Chris Howie cdhowie@gmail.com To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 8:44:58 PM Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] threats of violence
On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 11:31 PM, Geoffrey Plourde geo.plrd@yahoo.com wrote:
We should have a special unit to deal with these.
Some people call it the FBI. :)
-- Chris Howie http://www.chrishowie.com http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Crazycomputers
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On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 10:11 PM, George Herbert george.herbert@gmail.com wrote:
I'm not aware of anyone who admits to being a peace officer who contributes, though I'm sure some are out there. Assuming that they're near email when we need them is unwise.
In terms of contacts... how big a rolodex did you have in mind? There are tens of thousands of police agencies in the US alone. Nobody actually maintains such a list.
Law enforcement agencies can send each other electronic alerts these days, and are perfectly happy for you to report something happening in a remote location to your own local agency and have them forward the report over.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Responding_to_threats_of_harm
We already encourage anyone who thinks there's a credible threat of violence or suicide to report it to authorities (either local to the threat, or to them), and also ANI so that others can take a look an help if justified.
-george
On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 9:28 PM, Geoffrey Plourde geo.plrd@yahoo.com
wrote:
Seriously, I mean specially trained individuals with a rolodex of emergency contacts/and who are peace officers.
----- Original Message ---- From: Chris Howie cdhowie@gmail.com To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 8:44:58 PM Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] threats of violence
On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 11:31 PM, Geoffrey Plourde geo.plrd@yahoo.com wrote:
We should have a special unit to deal with these.
Some people call it the FBI. :)
-- Chris Howie http://www.chrishowie.com http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Crazycomputers
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-- -george william herbert george.herbert@gmail.com
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Really, the best thing is to just go to the police. If they really are suicidal, you may save someone's life; if they're just pulling a silly prank or trying to troll, being told by someone with a badge and a gun that it's Really Not Funny is probably not a bad thing anyway. I don't think one can adequately assess the seriousness of a suicide threat based solely on a short online communication.
On 13/03/2008, Todd Allen toddmallen@gmail.com wrote:
Really, the best thing is to just go to the police. If they really are suicidal, you may save someone's life; if they're just pulling a silly prank or trying to troll, being told by someone with a badge and a gun that it's Really Not Funny is probably not a bad thing anyway. I don't think one can adequately assess the seriousness of a suicide threat based solely on a short online communication.
This is pretty much what the Met Police officer I dealt with told me when I reported another suicide threat back in October.
there's been some recent work at; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Threats_Of_Violence
anyone see anything there they disagree with?
best,
PM.
On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 7:05 PM, James Farrar james.farrar@gmail.com wrote:
On 13/03/2008, Todd Allen toddmallen@gmail.com wrote:
Really, the best thing is to just go to the police. If they really are suicidal, you may save someone's life; if they're just pulling a silly prank or trying to troll, being told by someone with a badge and a gun that it's Really Not Funny is probably not a bad thing anyway. I don't think one can adequately assess the seriousness of a suicide threat based solely on a short online communication.
This is pretty much what the Met Police officer I dealt with told me when I reported another suicide threat back in October.
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private musings wrote:
there's been some recent work at; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Threats_Of_Violence
anyone see anything there they disagree with?
best,
PM.
On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 7:05 PM, James Farrar james.farrar@gmail.com wrote:
On 13/03/2008, Todd Allen toddmallen@gmail.com wrote:
Really, the best thing is to just go to the police. If they really are suicidal, you may save someone's life; if they're just pulling a silly prank or trying to troll, being told by someone with a badge and a gun that it's Really Not Funny is probably not a bad thing anyway. I don't think one can adequately assess the seriousness of a suicide threat based solely on a short online communication.
This is pretty much what the Met Police officer I dealt with told me when I reported another suicide threat back in October.
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I don't actually believe any of this should be codified. It is *not* a volunteers job to assess /OR/ report. They do so of their own accord, but we should not encourage it.
./scream
Screamer wrote:
I don't actually believe any of this should be codified. It is *not* a volunteers job to assess /OR/ report. They do so of their own accord, but we should not encourage it.
May even cause us problems if it is. If there's some policy somewhere that says editors should report threats of violence to the police, but for whatever reason nobody does and the violence gets carried out, would there be the possibility of lawsuits against editors for "failing their duty"?
Bryan Derksen wrote:
Screamer wrote:
I don't actually believe any of this should be codified. It is *not* a volunteers job to assess /OR/ report. They do so of their own accord, but we should not encourage it.
May even cause us problems if it is. If there's some policy somewhere that says editors should report threats of violence to the police, but for whatever reason nobody does and the violence gets carried out, would there be the possibility of lawsuits against editors for "failing their duty"?
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The depends on the locality I guess, but I 'm not going to enforce laws of my locality on another country for example (by telling everyone they should or should not report. People will do the right thing, for the most part. We don't have to codify this.
./scream
On 3/14/08, Bryan Derksen bryan.derksen@shaw.ca wrote:
May even cause us problems if it is. If there's some policy somewhere that says editors should report threats of violence to the police, but for whatever reason nobody does and the violence gets carried out, would there be the possibility of lawsuits against editors for "failing their duty"?
Lawsuit against unpaid volunteer who didn't sign any contract and reports to nobody? I don't think so.
Steve
On 13/03/2008, private musings thepmaccount@gmail.com wrote:
there's been some recent work at; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Threats_Of_Violence
anyone see anything there they disagree with?
best,
PM.
Umm, yes. I find that the language of this proposed policy is too strong, and creates a moral imperative that is improper on Wikipedia. As editors, none of us are obligated to do *anything* on Wikipedia, and our responsibility ends with things we actually do (edit articles, block users, comment on a policy, etc.). It is unacceptable to create the sense that anyone would have a real-world obligation to report something to authorities simply because they are Wikipedia readers/editors.
At best, this should be a guideline, and only when the language is watered down so that it says things like "encouraged but not obligated" and recognises that editors are not *required* to carry out any specific actions.
I've posted comments to the proposal as well.
Risker
99% or so of the threats of violence are simply strong language, and involving the police in them can have unfortunate permanent consequences. some degree of judgment is needed before reporting. "I'll kill you to keep this article" is not in general an actual threat of violence, especially when there is no way of identifying the real-life person being "threatened".
On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 9:58 AM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
On 13/03/2008, private musings thepmaccount@gmail.com wrote:
there's been some recent work at; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Threats_Of_Violence
anyone see anything there they disagree with?
best,
PM.
Umm, yes. I find that the language of this proposed policy is too strong, and creates a moral imperative that is improper on Wikipedia. As editors, none of us are obligated to do *anything* on Wikipedia, and our responsibility ends with things we actually do (edit articles, block users, comment on a policy, etc.). It is unacceptable to create the sense that anyone would have a real-world obligation to report something to authorities simply because they are Wikipedia readers/editors.
At best, this should be a guideline, and only when the language is watered down so that it says things like "encouraged but not obligated" and recognises that editors are not *required* to carry out any specific actions.
I've posted comments to the proposal as well.
Risker
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The essay that evolved out of my original WP:SUICIDE was designed to try and let people know "If you think it's credible, please feel free to report it, and here's how we encourage you to do that in a comprehensive way".
Making a prescriptive "You must report under XYZ conditions" seems likely to cause problems in terms of defining a threshold which won't cause many false alarms on truly trivial stuff.
Leaving the threshold of "worried enough to report it" up to individuals but supporting them on how to report seemed to be the best balance of responsibility.
-george
On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 8:47 AM, David Goodman dgoodmanny@gmail.com wrote:
99% or so of the threats of violence are simply strong language, and involving the police in them can have unfortunate permanent consequences. some degree of judgment is needed before reporting. "I'll kill you to keep this article" is not in general an actual threat of violence, especially when there is no way of identifying the real-life person being "threatened".
On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 9:58 AM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
On 13/03/2008, private musings thepmaccount@gmail.com wrote:
there's been some recent work at; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Threats_Of_Violence
anyone see anything there they disagree with?
best,
PM.
Umm, yes. I find that the language of this proposed policy is too
strong,
and creates a moral imperative that is improper on Wikipedia. As
editors,
none of us are obligated to do *anything* on Wikipedia, and our responsibility ends with things we actually do (edit articles, block
users,
comment on a policy, etc.). It is unacceptable to create the sense that anyone would have a real-world obligation to report something to
authorities
simply because they are Wikipedia readers/editors.
At best, this should be a guideline, and only when the language is
watered
down so that it says things like "encouraged but not obligated" and recognises that editors are not *required* to carry out any specific actions.
I've posted comments to the proposal as well.
Risker
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-- David Goodman, Ph.D, M.L.S. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG
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Risker wrote:
At best, this should be a guideline, and only when the language is watered down so that it says things like "encouraged but not obligated" and recognises that editors are not *required* to carry out any specific actions.
Ideally, IMO, something like this should be informative rather than prescriptive. Quite a few years back I had a nerve-wracking night on IRC talking with someone I knew who lived in another country and who was threatening to commit suicide right then and there, and it would have been really nice to have had a website at my fingertips that had a list of phone numbers I could use to contact authorities in various places. But I didn't need a page telling me I _should_ call someone. :)
(In my particular case things worked out fine anyway as we were able to talk the person down without any medical emergency. In hindsight it was obviously an attention-getting mechanism, if you seriously intend to kill yourself you don't bring it up with friends before doing it, but of course one should never treat it as such.)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Bryan Derksen wrote: | In hindsight it was | obviously an attention-getting mechanism, if you seriously intend to | kill yourself you don't bring it up with friends before doing it, but of | course one should never treat it as such.)
No, per http://www.suicide.org/suicide-myths.html, "People who commit suicide usually talk about it first. They are in pain and oftentimes reach out for help because they do not know what to do and have lost hope.", and "There are almost always warning signs."
- -FFM
ffm wrote:
Bryan Derksen wrote: | In hindsight it was | obviously an attention-getting mechanism, if you seriously intend to | kill yourself you don't bring it up with friends before doing it, but of | course one should never treat it as such.)
No, per http://www.suicide.org/suicide-myths.html, "People who commit suicide usually talk about it first. They are in pain and oftentimes reach out for help because they do not know what to do and have lost hope.", and "There are almost always warning signs."
Which is why one should treat it seriously; If they reach out and are ignored things get worse. I don't see the disagreement here.
We've had this other "essay" for a while:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Responding_to_threats_of_harm
That was formerly the WP:SUICIDE policy I did, extended by others in several ways, including adding handling of threats of violence. It's documenting the standing best practices without asserting it's a formalized policy, as two attempts to do a formalized policy via policy process melted down. I just did the essay to note what responsible people were doing and why, and that seemed to be completely controversy free.
Bstone is pushing his proposed policy below for reasons which are only clear to him. I asked him why his was preferrable to the existing one (turning it into a policy if people wanted) and he hasn't really answered that.
-george
On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 6:58 AM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
On 13/03/2008, private musings thepmaccount@gmail.com wrote:
there's been some recent work at; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Threats_Of_Violence
anyone see anything there they disagree with?
best,
PM.
Umm, yes. I find that the language of this proposed policy is too strong, and creates a moral imperative that is improper on Wikipedia. As editors, none of us are obligated to do *anything* on Wikipedia, and our responsibility ends with things we actually do (edit articles, block users, comment on a policy, etc.). It is unacceptable to create the sense that anyone would have a real-world obligation to report something to authorities simply because they are Wikipedia readers/editors.
At best, this should be a guideline, and only when the language is watered down so that it says things like "encouraged but not obligated" and recognises that editors are not *required* to carry out any specific actions.
I've posted comments to the proposal as well.
Risker _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Please disregard that MFD I posted here, it was premature and in appropriate. I apologize.
./scream
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 20:45:30 -0500> From: scream@datascreamer.com> To: wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] threats of violence> > Screamer wrote:> > Please disregard that MFD I posted here, it was premature and in > > appropriate. I apologize.> >> >> >> > ./scream> >> >> Meh... strike that. I reopened the discussion. > > > ./scream> > > > _______________________________________________> WikiEN-l mailing list> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
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