Earlier: "...Somewhere or another, we may even have touched on an encyclopedia for more than three messages at a time..."
Earlier: "... I'd never have posted here if I weren't banned from complaining to OTRS on threat of AN/I..."
Wow - one of my many, may points about the perils of having a banning tool in the first place - we end up endlessly arguing aver banning rather than dealing with the content of the problem.
Banning is bad for ... do we need a list?
It always ends up with this:
Banning is bad for the person who bans.
"...more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice..." -- MLKJr
If not here, where?
On 27/09/2007, Monahon, Peter B. Peter.Monahon@uspto.gov wrote:
Wow - one of my many, may points about the perils of having a banning tool in the first place - we end up endlessly arguing aver banning rather than dealing with the content of the problem.
Banning is bad for ... do we need a list?
It always ends up with this:
Banning is bad for the person who bans.
"...more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice..." -- MLKJr
Mostly, I consider it highly rude to insult/attack someone in a forum in which he or she cannot respond. There are two ways to solve this - allow the person to respond, or don't insult/attack the person (or, failing that, get rid of the insults/attacks). Now, if you really want to ban someone, I guess the first is out of the question. But if you are censoring the person, defending the insults/attacks as free speech is incredibly hypocritical, as is attacking the person for daring to complain about the insults/attacks.
If not here, where?
Free speech is this way: https://tor.eff.org
on 9/27/07 10:25 AM, Armed Blowfish at diodontida.armata@googlemail.com wrote:
Mostly, I consider it highly rude to insult/attack someone in a forum in which he or she cannot respond.
If this is truly a "collaborative" Project, what the hell are we doing attacking each other in the first place!?
Marc Riddell
on 9/27/07, Armed Blowfish diodontida.armata@googlemail.com wrote:
Mostly, I consider it highly rude to insult/attack someone in a forum in which he or she cannot respond.
On 27/09/2007, Marc Riddell michaeldavid86@comcast.net wrote:
If this is truly a "collaborative" Project, what the hell are we doing attacking each other in the first place!?
Marc Riddell
Getting angry at people for defending themselves from child molesters, or being sockpuppets, or not being able to confirm that they are not sockpuppets, or something like that. I don't know. But if you are going to ban someone, as a parting gift, please leave the person alone.
On 27/09/2007, Marc Riddell michaeldavid86@comcast.net wrote:
If this is truly a "collaborative" Project, what the hell are we doing attacking each other in the first place!?
Marc Riddell
The original comment may have been innocent. The person who made it may not have intendend for it to be harmful. Indeed, whether or not it would be harmful may not have been something he or she was thinking about.
When it is explained to you that it is harmful, and you do not remove it (even blanking, which doesn't hide it from anyone but bots) or refactor it, you knowingly harm the person. Attacking the person for asking the material to be removed goes beyond even that. (It may be reasonable, however, to ask that if your harmful comment is removed, any harmful comments that provoked your comment also be removed - if you can't respond to them, they shouldn't be there.)
On 9/27/07, Armed Blowfish diodontida.armata@googlemail.com wrote:
on 9/27/07, Armed Blowfish diodontida.armata@googlemail.com wrote:
Mostly, I consider it highly rude to insult/attack someone in a forum in which he or she cannot respond.
On 27/09/2007, Marc Riddell michaeldavid86@comcast.net wrote:
If this is truly a "collaborative" Project, what the hell are we doing attacking each other in the first place!?
Marc Riddell
Getting angry at people for defending themselves from child molesters, or being sockpuppets, or not being able to confirm that they are not sockpuppets, or something like that. I don't know. But if you are going to ban someone, as a parting gift, please leave the person alone.
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Good god. First off, the site is called wikipedia. It is a free-as-in-speech encyclopedia/encyclopaedia depending on what flavor/flavour of english you speak. That doesn't change the name of the site being wikipedia, not wikipaedia. So stop being childish about the name, it's messing with my filters.
Secondly, for all that is holy, no one cares about this anymore, the system works well, we are not about to collapse, and the only people who disagree are those fringe wackos at WR who are convinced we're CIA and MI5 and whatever else the dreamed up this week. And if you are honestly comparing us to ED, well, you've then shown you are incapable of logic or reason, reverting to hyperbole to try to shove a pointy stick where a good, well thought argument would normally go, and it's about time you got modded again.
On 27/09/2007, Brock Weller brock.weller@gmail.com wrote:
Good god. First off, the site is called wikipedia. It is a free-as-in-speech encyclopedia/encyclopaedia depending on what flavor/flavour of english you speak.
No, it isn't. Chinese people are censored. Banned people are censored. Wikipaedia certainly isn't free speech.
That doesn't change the name of the site being wikipedia, not wikipaedia. So stop being childish about the name, it's messing with my filters.
Do you want to write me a program to correct my spelling? Alternatively, you could add 'Wikipaedia' to your filters.
Secondly, for all that is holy, no one cares about this anymore,
Or, to be specific, most of the people who care about it are being censored.
the system works well,
Hurting people isn't working well.
we are not about to collapse,
You already have, or what was that on /. ?
and the only people who disagree are those fringe wackos at WR who are convinced we're CIA and MI5 and whatever else the dreamed up this week.
I disagree, and I happen to support SlimVirgin.
Not everyone on WR is the same.
And if you are honestly comparing us to ED, well, you've then shown you are incapable of logic or reason, reverting to hyperbole to try to shove a pointy stick where a good, well thought argument would normally go, and it's about time you got modded again.
-- -Brock
You have not explained why WP is not worse than ED.
I have explained why it is. Firstly, both WP and ED will attack you for even asking harmful material to be removed. WP attacks you seriously, whereas ED... well, no one in their right mind would take ED seriously.
ED has made me throw up. WP has caused serious damage to my liver.
On 9/27/07, Armed Blowfish diodontida.armata@googlemail.com wrote:
On 27/09/2007, Brock Weller brock.weller@gmail.com wrote:
Good god. First off, the site is called wikipedia. It is a free-as-in-speech encyclopedia/encyclopaedia depending on what flavor/flavour of english you speak.
No, it isn't. Chinese people are censored. Banned people are censored. Wikipaedia certainly isn't free speech.
free-as-in-speech is an expression to seperate that free from free-as-in-free-beer. And chinese people are not censored by wikipedia. They are blocked by their government. Show me where in the blocking policy it lists 'being chinese' as a criterion for a block.
That doesn't change the name of the
site being wikipedia, not wikipaedia. So stop being childish about the
name,
it's messing with my filters.
Do you want to write me a program to correct my spelling? Alternatively, you could add 'Wikipaedia' to your filters.
I'd rather you just stop acting like you're eight. I shouldn't have to go out of my way to correct something that could be solved by you using correct spelling. It makes you look more petty each time it's brought up and you refuse.
Secondly, for all that is holy, no one cares about this anymore,
Or, to be specific, most of the people who care about it are being censored.
no, the majority of people who bring this up are massive trolls hoping to stir up people like you against everyone else. Don't fall for the bait, man.
the system works well,
Hurting people isn't working well.
We don't hurt people. Sometimes we have to remove a community member, but we don't all go out and lynch random people we dislike. 'Hey look, it's Eddie! He looked at me funny last night!'
we are not about to collapse,
You already have, or what was that on /. ?
Because, you know, the community is in disarray and theres no encyclop(a)edia. Missed that happening over lunch, did I?
and the only people who disagree
are those fringe wackos at WR who are convinced we're CIA and MI5 and whatever else the dreamed up this week.
I disagree, and I happen to support SlimVirgin.
Not everyone on WR is the same.
Who the hell brought slimvirgin into this? See, that's all these people obsess over.
And if you are honestly comparing us
to ED, well, you've then shown you are incapable of logic or reason, reverting to hyperbole to try to shove a pointy stick where a
good,
well thought argument would normally go, and it's about time you got
modded
again.
-- -Brock
You have not explained why WP is not worse than ED.
I have explained why it is. Firstly, both WP and ED will attack you for even asking harmful material to be removed. WP attacks you seriously, whereas ED... well, no one in their right mind would take ED seriously.
ED has made me throw up. WP has caused serious damage to my liver.
I don't have to show that. 'Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence' and all that. You have yet to show anything. You spout nothing but hyperbole and nonsense, hoping some sticks, when it's patently false. Seriously. we're sorry you feel running a tor exit node is more important then editing. We are. But *you* made that choice, not us. We never forced you to run it, and we never told you you couldn't take it down. All this stems from that. you can kill the tor daemon and solve this all quickly, or you can quit whining about something that was a policy when you signed up and was known to you.
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On 27/09/2007, Brock Weller brock.weller@gmail.com wrote:
free-as-in-speech is an expression to seperate that free from free-as-in-free-beer. And chinese people are not censored by wikipedia. They are blocked by their government. Show me where in the blocking policy it lists 'being chinese' as a criterion for a block.
It's called 'No open proxies'.
There are options available to allow Wikipaedia a measure of safety from proxy misusers and still let some people edit through them. For example, nym. http://www.lunkwill.org/src/nym/
Do you want to write me a program to correct my spelling? Alternatively, you could add 'Wikipaedia' to your filters.
I'd rather you just stop acting like you're eight. I shouldn't have to go out of my way to correct something that could be solved by you using correct spelling. It makes you look more petty each time it's brought up and you refuse.
I suppose you would like me to spell everything the American way?
Old folks actually have more difficulty changing their ways than young folks. Supposing I made a concerted effort to spell Wikipaedia 'Wikipedia', I would probably forget in less than a week anyway.
Alternatively, you could note that it is spelt Wikipaedia by some: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/sco/7/71/Wiki-sco.png
no, the majority of people who bring this up are massive trolls hoping to stir up people like you against everyone else. Don't fall for the bait, man.
Erm, WP is quite capable of stirring me up without the help of people who might comfort me if I weren't so upset at them for hurting friends of mine....
the system works well,
Hurting people isn't working well.
We don't hurt people. Sometimes we have to remove a community member, but we don't all go out and lynch random people we dislike. 'Hey look, it's Eddie! He looked at me funny last night!'
You don't just ban people. You (you == WP, not Brock) attack them. 'Troll' is one of the most common insults. Banned user pages show up on top of Google searches for many of their names or pseudonyms.
we are not about to collapse,
You already have, or what was that on /. ?
Because, you know, the community is in disarray and theres no encyclop(a)edia. Missed that happening over lunch, did I?
WP is failing to take care of its own people.
Who the hell brought slimvirgin into this? See, that's all these people obsess over.
You did, I believe.
I don't have to show that. 'Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence' and all that. You have yet to show anything. You spout nothing but hyperbole and nonsense, hoping some sticks, when it's patently false.
Do you not believe I am upset? Do you want a description of the effects of propoxyphene/acetomenophin combo?
Seriously. we're sorry you feel running a tor exit node is more important then editing. We are. But *you* made that choice, not us.
I feel protecting myself from a guy who molested me when I was a child is more important than editing. When you are saying it is my choice, you are saying it is my fault I got molested. Please stop.
On 9/27/07, Armed Blowfish diodontida.armata@googlemail.com wrote:
On 27/09/2007, Brock Weller brock.weller@gmail.com wrote:
free-as-in-speech is an expression to seperate that free from free-as-in-free-beer. And chinese people are not censored by wikipedia. They are blocked by their government. Show me where in the blocking policy it lists 'being chinese' as a criterion for a block.
It's called 'No open proxies'.
There are options available to allow Wikipaedia a measure of safety from proxy misusers and still let some people edit through them. For example, nym. http://www.lunkwill.org/src/nym/
No open proxies states nothing about blocking anyone who's chinese. It means you aren't allowed to use open proxies.
Do you want to write me a program to correct my spelling?
Alternatively, you could add 'Wikipaedia' to your filters.
I'd rather you just stop acting like you're eight. I shouldn't have to
go
out of my way to correct something that could be solved by you using correct spelling. It makes you look more petty each time it's brought up and you refuse.
I suppose you would like me to spell everything the American way?
Old folks actually have more difficulty changing their ways than young folks. Supposing I made a concerted effort to spell Wikipaedia 'Wikipedia', I would probably forget in less than a week anyway.
Alternatively, you could note that it is spelt Wikipaedia by some: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/sco/7/71/Wiki-sco.png
There is no 'american' and 'commonwealth' way of spelling it. It's a *proper* noun. I'm more then willing to help tutor you in the structure of english, if you wish.
no, the majority of people who bring this up are massive trolls hoping to
stir up people like you against everyone else. Don't fall for the bait,
man.
Erm, WP is quite capable of stirring me up without the help of people who might comfort me if I weren't so upset at them for hurting friends of mine....
the system works well,
Hurting people isn't working well.
We don't hurt people. Sometimes we have to remove a community member,
but
we don't all go out and lynch random people we dislike. 'Hey look, it's
Eddie!
He looked at me funny last night!'
You don't just ban people. You (you == WP, not Brock) attack them. 'Troll' is one of the most common insults. Banned user pages show up on top of Google searches for many of their names or pseudonyms.
Not our fault. What google does should not and does not factor in to our mission. If i'm making a soda, I dont go out and make sure that coke is using corn syrup. I make my soda the way I make it.
we are not about to collapse,
You already have, or what was that on /. ?
Because, you know, the community is in disarray and theres no encyclop(a)edia. Missed that happening over lunch, did I?
WP is failing to take care of its own people.
Not really.
Who the hell brought slimvirgin into this? See, that's all these people
obsess over.
You did, I believe.
Don't remember that. Don't see her name or anything related to her.
I don't have to show that. 'Extraordinary claims require extraordinary
evidence' and all that. You have yet to show anything. You spout nothing
but
hyperbole and nonsense, hoping some sticks, when it's patently false.
Do you not believe I am upset? Do you want a description of the effects of propoxyphene/acetomenophin combo?
you're upset. Doesn't make it a legitimate gripe.
Seriously. we're sorry you feel running a tor exit node is more
important then editing. We are. But *you* made that choice, not us.
I feel protecting myself from a guy who molested me when I was a child is more important than editing. When you are saying it is my choice, you are saying it is my fault I got molested. Please stop.
oh come on. How does this person relate to the policies we set? 'No Personal Attacks, unless you have a reason to be mean because of your childhood'? You brought him up, not me, I had nothing to do with him entering the conversation, and I will not 'stop' because there was nothing out of line with the comment. I never said it's your fault, and to insinuate otherwise is intellectually and morally bankrupt. Here's a tip, if you dont want to be reminded of it, *don't bring it up*. This is another example of you bringing the list into endless tangents and gripes that have nothing to do with the purpose of the list.
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On 27/09/2007, Brock Weller brock.weller@gmail.com wrote:
On 9/27/07, Armed Blowfish diodontida.armata@googlemail.com wrote:
I feel protecting myself from a guy who molested me when I was a child is more important than editing. When you are saying it is my choice, you are saying it is my fault I got molested. Please stop.
oh come on. How does this person relate to the policies we set? 'No Personal Attacks, unless you have a reason to be mean because of your childhood'?
I feel attacked that you are saying it is my fault I use Tor, because I use Tor to protect myself from him / people like him.
You brought him up, not me,
WP kept asking me for months why I use Tor, even after I made it clear I had no intention of appealing. WP brought it up. You brought it up too by mentioning my so-called 'choice' to use Tor.
I had nothing to do with him entering the conversation, and I will not 'stop' because there was nothing out of line with the comment. I never said it's your fault, and to insinuate otherwise is intellectually and morally bankrupt.
You implied it by saying it was my choice to use Tor. It is no more a choice than getting molested was a choice.
Here's a tip, if you dont want to be reminded of it, *don't bring it up*.
I wanted to leave WP, but people kept talking on and on why did I use Tor, using Tor was bad for me to do....
This conversation has moved entirely off topic, and none of your assertions make any sense whatsoever. Tor is not used with the pedia unfortunately. No ones telling you to suit using it, just that at present time you cant edit through it. Giant appeal to emotion logical fallacy or not, thats the case. You use tor? We don't allow open proxies, sorry. There isn't anything more to it at this point. I applaud the fact that you run an exit node, i use tor frequently when browseing torrent sites, data retention laws what the are, and i do think that the **AA wont give a damn that i'm downloading freely distributed media, not infringing commercial works, as sue happy as they are. But i don't use it on the pedia. Because it's not allowed. That's the rules as they are now. You know this, i know this. But regardless, this is being dragged off topic. This whole thread drags the list off topic.
On 9/27/07, Armed Blowfish diodontida.armata@googlemail.com wrote:
On 27/09/2007, Brock Weller brock.weller@gmail.com wrote:
On 9/27/07, Armed Blowfish diodontida.armata@googlemail.com wrote:
I feel protecting myself from a guy who molested me when I was a child is more important than editing. When you are saying it is my choice, you are saying it is my fault I got molested. Please stop.
oh come on. How does this person relate to the policies we set? 'No
Personal
Attacks, unless you have a reason to be mean because of your childhood'?
I feel attacked that you are saying it is my fault I use Tor, because I use Tor to protect myself from him / people like him.
You brought him up, not me,
WP kept asking me for months why I use Tor, even after I made it clear I had no intention of appealing. WP brought it up. You brought it up too by mentioning my so-called 'choice' to use Tor.
I had nothing to do with him entering the conversation, and I will not 'stop' because there was nothing out of line with the comment. I never said it's your fault, and to insinuate otherwise is intellectually and morally bankrupt.
You implied it by saying it was my choice to use Tor. It is no more a choice than getting molested was a choice.
Here's a tip, if you dont want to be reminded of it, *don't bring it up*.
I wanted to leave WP, but people kept talking on and on why did I use Tor, using Tor was bad for me to do....
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On 9/28/07, Armed Blowfish diodontida.armata@googlemail.com wrote:
Alternatively, you could note that it is spelt Wikipaedia by some:
The spelling "Wikipaedia" does not appear on [[en:wikt:wikipedia]], which I assume is close to authoritative.
While this is a little offtopic for wikien-l, the "A" that has been added to [[sco:Image:Wiki-sco.png]] looks unprofessional and that image doesn't appear on [[commons:Wikipedia]].
The Scots translation on [[en:wikt:wikipedia]] is "Wikipædia", so the "A" in that image may actually incorrect.
It would be good if we can have an sco translation on [[en:wikt:encyclopedia]] as well.
-- John
on 9/27/07 11:12 AM, Brock Weller at brock.weller@gmail.com wrote:
Secondly, for all that is holy, no one cares about this anymore,
Firstly, Brock, that is quite a sweeping statement; "no one" cares?
the system works well
Would you say this to a person the system has failed?
<snip>
and it's about time you got modded again.
Is this how you would deal with someone in your life that you don't want to hear from anymore? If you were on the phone, would you hang up on them? If you were in the same room with them, would you simply walk out? The same options are open to you on this List.
Marc Riddell
On 9/27/07, Marc Riddell michaeldavid86@comcast.net wrote:
on 9/27/07 11:12 AM, Brock Weller at brock.weller@gmail.com wrote:
Secondly, for all that is holy, no one cares about this anymore,
Firstly, Brock, that is quite a sweeping statement; "no one" cares?
the system works well
Would you say this to a person the system has failed?
<snip>
and it's about time you got modded again.
Is this how you would deal with someone in your life that you don't want to hear from anymore? If you were on the phone, would you hang up on them? If you were in the same room with them, would you simply walk out? The same options are open to you on this List.
Marc Riddell
The analogy is not very close. The list is a communication medium for discussing things related to the project. You and i disagree, but we have legitimate conversations about the project and discuss problems and solutions more or less civilaly. I find you pleasent to deal with. This is like two people talking on the phone, and a third person, Armed Blowfish, who yells, screams and moans about nonsensical topics to the point where it's nearly impossible for the two people using the damn phone to talk. I would quickly hang up in that case, yes.
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On 27/09/2007, Brock Weller brock.weller@gmail.com wrote:
The analogy is not very close. The list is a communication medium for discussing things related to the project. You and i disagree, but we have legitimate conversations about the project and discuss problems and solutions more or less civilaly. I find you pleasent to deal with. This is like two people talking on the phone, and a third person, Armed Blowfish, who yells, screams and moans about nonsensical topics to the point where it's nearly impossible for the two people using the damn phone to talk. I would quickly hang up in that case, yes.
You have implied that it is my fault I was molested as a child by saying that using Tor is a matter of choice for me.
The correct response is, 'No, that's not what I meant. I realise now that using Tor isn't a matter of choice for you, and I certainly don't think it it your fault you were molested. Sorry you were molested. *hug*'
on 9/27/07 11:12 AM, Brock Weller at brock.weller@gmail.com wrote:
Secondly, for all that is holy, no one cares about this anymore,
On 9/27/07, Marc Riddell michaeldavid86@comcast.net wrote:
Firstly, Brock, that is quite a sweeping statement; "no one" cares?
the system works well
Would you say this to a person the system has failed?
<snip>
and it's about time you got modded again.
Is this how you would deal with someone in your life that you don't want to hear from anymore? If you were on the phone, would you hang up on them? If you were in the same room with them, would you simply walk out? The same options are open to you on this List.
Marc Riddell
on 9/27/07 12:58 PM, Brock Weller at brock.weller@gmail.com wrote:
The analogy is not very close. The list is a communication medium for discussing things related to the project. You and i disagree, but we have legitimate conversations about the project and discuss problems and solutions more or less civilaly. I find you pleasent to deal with. This is like two people talking on the phone, and a third person, Armed Blowfish, who yells, screams and moans about nonsensical topics to the point where it's nearly impossible for the two people using the damn phone to talk. I would quickly hang up in that case, yes.
Brock,
OK. Then let's think of the List as more of a conference call where all parties of equal status are talking. If you don't like what one person is saying, tell them so. If they keep saying it, you have the option to say goodbye - and hang up. But cutting them off because they are annoying you should never be an option.
For anyone to be "moderated" (censored) because a "moderator" (censor) finds them annoying; or because a few Members of the List finds some if the subject matter uncomfortable - is still bullshit.
Marc
On 9/27/07, Brock Weller brock.weller@gmail.com wrote:
Secondly, for all that is holy, no one cares about this anymore, the system works well, we are not about to collapse, and the only people who disagree are those fringe wackos at WR who are convinced we're CIA and MI5 and whatever else the dreamed up this week. And if you are honestly comparing us to ED, well, you've then shown you are incapable of logic or reason, reverting to hyperbole to try to shove a pointy stick where a good, well thought argument would normally go, and it's about time you got modded again.
I don't pretend to speak for the other list mods, but we generally moderate people only when they are actively disrupting the list. Posting ridiculous commentary usually doesn't meet that standard.
Johnleemk
On 27/09/2007, John Lee johnleemk@gmail.com wrote:
I don't pretend to speak for the other list mods, but we generally moderate people only when they are actively disrupting the list. Posting ridiculous commentary usually doesn't meet that standard.
Posting hundreds of kilobytes a day of repetitious near-spam, having admitted one doesn't read what one is responding to, is pushing it however.
AB, see if you can limit yourself to one post a day containing many salient points in a concise manner. Under the 10KB limit. Can it be done?
- d.