This is another example of emotion-driven hyperbole. This is an encyclopedia project. People who are interested in spending their time contributing to an anti-suicide cause may do so, but this is not it. The Wikipedia coverage of this topic, like any other, should be value-free, and should offer an informative, non-judgmental view. It is not the job of encyclopedia editors to direct customers/clients to any particular "suicide hotline," and it is not the job of encyclopedia editors to either chastise or egg on suicidal readers.
To assert in the lead of the article that something is "wrong" with suicide (in the normative sense) is as clear a violation of the Neutral Point of View as I can imagine. Some people assert the existence of a right-to-die, while others deny this. Both of those views are already discussed in various articles, including:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_die http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_intervention http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-harm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_views_of_suicide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_views_of_suicide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_views_of_suicide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_suicide
That's why the infobox is there, after all.
DickClarkMises
Message: 12
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 15:50:27 -0400 From: Marc Riddell michaeldavid86@comcast.net Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] "Suicide methods" atricle: Epilogue To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: C24E91C3.36D4%michaeldavid86@comcast.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
on 4/20/07 3:26 PM, Matthew Brown at morven@gmail.com wrote:
I don't think that's appropriate in an encyclopedia in any case.
Please stop with what is or isn't "appropriate for an encyclopedia". The small act of placing a phone number on a page could actually prevent a death.
Marc
on 4/20/07 4:15 PM, Dick Clark at crotalus@gmail.com wrote:
This is another example of emotion-driven hyperbole. This is an encyclopedia project. People who are interested in spending their time contributing to an anti-suicide cause may do so, but this is not it. The Wikipedia coverage of this topic, like any other, should be value-free, and should offer an informative, non-judgmental view. It is not the job of encyclopedia editors to direct customers/clients to any particular "suicide hotline," and it is not the job of encyclopedia editors to either chastise or egg on suicidal readers.
This is clearly your own, personal point of view.
What I am saying is, if the Wikipedia project is truly ground breaking, really wanting to think outside of the standard encyclopedic box, it can, and should, consider including such features.
Suicide is an irreversible choice. All I am saying is to provide an avenue for the person contemplating this act to talk with someone about it. If, after having done this, they still want to die - that choice still exists.
Marc Riddell
Suicide is an irreversible choice. All I am saying is to provide an avenue for the person contemplating this act to talk with someone about it. If, after having done this, they still want to die - that choice still exists.
Marc Riddell
I have lost friends to suicide. I have seen children orphaned and wives and mothers left in total despair. To suggest that suicide is just another rational life choice, and collapse the debate into the euthanasia debate is ignorant and offensive.
Most people do not commit suicide by rational choice - they are often mentally ill, clinically depressed, or driven to it in despair in a time of often temporary crisis. Many are ill and need treatment - not rights. Many are young men with little life experience. Many 'suicides' are simply self-harmers crying for help, but going too far.
Perhaps there are cases of rational, sound choice decisions, somewhere. But to suggest that this is the norm and debate from there is just libertarian piffle that puts abstract notions of right above the welfare of real hurting and vulnerable people.
Suicide isn't just an individual's choice. Suicide is devastating, it wastes lives and affects whole families and communities. It is certainly not a debating point for civil libertarians of individualism.
Suicide is an irreversible choice. All I am saying is to provide an avenue for the person contemplating this act to talk with someone about it. If, after having done this, they still want to die - that choice still exists.
Marc Riddell
on 4/20/07 10:29 PM, doc at doc.wikipedia@ntlworld.com wrote:
I have lost friends to suicide. I have seen children orphaned and wives and mothers left in total despair. To suggest that suicide is just another rational life choice, and collapse the debate into the euthanasia debate is ignorant and offensive.
Most people do not commit suicide by rational choice - they are often mentally ill, clinically depressed, or driven to it in despair in a time of often temporary crisis. Many are ill and need treatment - not rights. Many are young men with little life experience. Many 'suicides' are simply self-harmers crying for help, but going too far.
Perhaps there are cases of rational, sound choice decisions, somewhere. But to suggest that this is the norm and debate from there is just libertarian piffle that puts abstract notions of right above the welfare of real hurting and vulnerable people.
Suicide isn't just an individual's choice. Suicide is devastating, it wastes lives and affects whole families and communities. It is certainly not a debating point for civil libertarians of individualism.
Doc,
This is from my original post which started this thread:
"I work with the core of a person. This is the deepest, most fundamental part that exists before the cultural, social and religious are superimposed. This is a person¹s ³gut instinct²; that part that says, ³this doesn¹t feel right². When a conflict exists between what a person feels is right and what they have been taught is right; this most often, results in emotional pain and, in extreme cases, the person decides death is the only thing that can relieve this pain.
It is my commitment to this person to help them resolve this pain."
I just wanted to be sure you understood that I completely agree with what you said. In fact I was starting to feel that I was the only one who believed this.
Marc Riddell