Dante wrote:
With all due respect mav, this is bs. No one voted for the logo that is currently on the 'pedia.
Well I'm sure you already know that I have a BS in BS (in more ways than one!). ;)
Again, they voted for the *concept* - an unfinished puzzle ball that gave the impression of many languages (Erik kept on saying that the concept-implementations can and and should be improved). A great many people simply *hated* the particular PM implementation of that concept, so it was improved by a professional designer. Still the same concept.
Where was the revision process announced?
http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2003-October/012323.html (wikipedia-l post by Erik)
And uh, the announcements page, perhaps? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Announcements
Before that it was on the Main Page for a while but I moved it to the announcements page (one of the Nohat logos was already "live" at that point; see my complaint below).
Making announcements is what the announcements page is there for! Only very major announcements go on the Main Page. Improving the logo is not major enough to warrant that, IMO, but choosing the concept was.
Its also been on the Main Page of http://meta.wikipedia.org/ for some time.
Alas, it should have been also inputted into Wikimeida News.
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_News
I'm sorry if I don't spend as much time on the meta as on the Wikipedia proper, but there wasn't even
If you are concerned about meta issues and policy then you should pay attention to Wikipedia-l (*cough* Erik's post) and meta (Main Page link). If you are concerned with general Wikipedia-related issues then read the Wikipedia Announcements page (*cough* link to meta page on this issue). Also, the word "Announcements" is bolded on RC whenever there is a new announcement.
(as far as I can tell) a single mention on the Wikipedia proper that the logo was actually being CHANGED from the initial winner to the nohat version.
I was also a bit surprised that Nohat's logo found its way on en.wikipedia so fast. I would have preferred to have the nohat logo go onto test.wikipeida.org first so that people could see how it looked on a MediaWiki installation (same for the original PM winning logo). It is simply bad form and looks amateurish to keep changing the logo on a website with over 200,000 pages - as if some type of 'logo variant war' were going on. Even the most recent version of the nohat logo can and probably will be swapped for another, even better version.
-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)
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Again, they voted for the *concept* - an unfinished puzzle ball that gave the impression of many languages (Erik kept on saying that the concept-implementations can and and should be improved). A great many people simply *hated* the particular PM implementation of that concept, so it was improved by a professional designer. Still the same concept.
Many people (including me, and probably others) liked the "concept" of the unfinished puzzle-piece globe best in the original impimentation. No offence to Nohat, but just because a profesional did it doesn't necessarilly mean it's better.
http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2003-October/012323.html
(wikipedia-l post by Erik)
To be realistic, WikiEN-l really acts as the list for dealing with most issues. Many fewer people subscribe to Wikipedia-l than do WikiEN-l, and most of the issues we discuss here have to do with the project as a whole.
And uh, the announcements page, perhaps? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Announcements
Before that it was on the Main Page for a while but I moved it to the announcements page (one of the Nohat logos was already "live" at that point; see my complaint below).
Making announcements is what the announcements page is there for! Only very major announcements go on the Main Page. Improving the logo is not major enough to warrant that, IMO, but choosing the concept was.
Its also been on the Main Page of http://meta.wikipedia.org/ for some time.
Alas, it should have been also inputted into Wikimeida News.
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_News
If you are concerned about meta issues and policy then you should pay attention to Wikipedia-l (*cough* Erik's post) and meta (Main Page link). If you are concerned with general Wikipedia-related issues then read the Wikipedia Announcements page (*cough* link to meta page on this issue). Also, the word "Announcements" is bolded on RC whenever there is a new announcement.
No matter how many places it was announced, only around 1/6 of the people that voted for one of the main logos ended up voting for the revisions. Only the people that didn't like the logo voted on the revisions, mostly. And there was no way to vote for the original one, only the modifications! Very recently, that has changed, but very few people have voted for or against the original yet. And of those that actually did vote for or against the original logo, all of them voted for it.
I was also a bit surprised that Nohat's logo found its way on en.wikipedia so fast. I would have preferred to have the nohat logo go onto test.wikipeida.org first so that people could see how it looked on a MediaWiki installation (same for the original PM winning logo).
There wasn't enough time for people to vote on it. Someone is pushing this process too fast.
It is simply bad form and looks amateurish to keep changing the logo on a website with over 200,000 pages
- as if some type of 'logo variant war' were going
on. Even the most recent version of the nohat logo can and probably will be swapped for another, even better version.
-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)
But the Nohat logo doesn't have any *words* on it! No matter how many minor modifications are made, it still won't have words. Wikipedia is about words, not just letters.
Why weren't these modifications in the original logo vote like other modifications were? LDan
PS. About a week and a half ago, I posted some complaints about the logo, but my comments were deleted by an anon. I'm really mad at him/her, but I can't do anything about it.
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Daniel Ehrenberg wrote:
But the Nohat logo doesn't have any *words* on it! No matter how many minor modifications are made, it still won't have words. Wikipedia is about words, not just letters.
Actually, it does have words. The Chinese ideogram represents an entire word, not just a letter. Second, Wikipedia is about articles of information. Articles of information are made up of sections. Sections are made up of paragraphs. Paragraphs are made up of sentences. Sentences are made up of words. Words are made up of letters. Words are already an abstraction far removed from the articles they represent. Why is it so critical that words appear on the logo, and not some other level of abstraction? Using the logic that the content of the logo should as closely model the Wikipedia as possible, one of the logos that had a book in it should be the logo, because words are just a part of what makes up Wikipedia. And what about images and sound and other multimedia?
Furthermore, the PM logo didn't really have words on it either. It had strings of nonsense. Last time I checked, "kallo" wasn't a word. Also, the diversity of writing systems and thus languages is much greater on the current logo versus the PM one. The main problem most of the people had with the PM logo was that it was too busy, and the primary cause of that "busy" look was the fact that the words and the edges of the pieces intersected, resulting in a mess of lines and letters. Isolating the glyphs on the pieces solves that problem.
PS. About a week and a half ago, I posted some complaints about the logo, but my comments were deleted by an anon. I'm really mad at him/her, but I can't do anything about it.
Complaints don't really help. They just serve to divide and inflame without making progress. Like Erik said, if you have suggestions about how to improve the logo, then that would be helpful.
- David [[User:Nohat]]
PS This comment was left on m:Talk:Logo feedback ==begin quote== I was flipping through Wikipedia while looking something up, but the logo caught my eye so I flipped back. The unfinished puzzle-sphere of typography is one of the best logos I have come across. Clever without being overly slick; and not the typically overly simplistic identities put forth by un-aesthetic graphic designers. I actually was drawn to click on it, and couldn't believe that I was brought to a page where I could actually give feedback on something that so absolutely deserves praise. Excellent design. (submitted by ricksomething) ==end quote==
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 17:12:13 -0700 (PDT), Daniel Ehrenberg littledanehren@yahoo.com gave utterance to the following:
But the Nohat logo doesn't have any *words* on it! No matter how many minor modifications are made, it still won't have words. Wikipedia is about words, not just letters.
Dan, did you ever read the starting brief for the logo contest? It included the condition that, because W is multilingual, the logo should not use words. So the original "winning" logo was in breach of the rules and shouldn't have made it to the final 10. But it did anyway, and won - as a concept. And by its designer's own admission it wasn't up to production standard yet.
Why weren't these modifications in the original logo vote like other modifications were?
Because the announced plan was to work on refining the winner wikistyle.
PS. About a week and a half ago, I posted some complaints about the logo, but my comments were deleted by an anon. I'm really mad at him/her, but I can't do anything about it.
Why can't you just reinstate them from the page history?
--- Richard Grevers lists@dramatic.co.nz wrote:
Dan, did you ever read the starting brief for the logo contest? It included the condition that, because W is multilingual, the logo should not use words. So the original "winning" logo was in breach of the rules and shouldn't have made it to the final 10.
It had words in all different languages. I think the rules were intended to say that it can't have words that would need to be changed for different versions of the logo.
Because the announced plan was to work on refining the winner wikistyle.
I guess I didn't hear that, but I did read over all of the meta pages about it. Maybe it was only mentioned on the list while I was away. If you can refer me to that, I'll drop this.
Why can't you just reinstate them from the page history?
-- Richard Grevers
I did, a while ago. LDan
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