From: Anthony DiPierro wikispam@inbox.org
Even then there is relatively little incentive for a traditional encyclopedia to attack Wikipedia in the first place.
I agree, but this assumes that the attacker is a) well-informed, b) rational, c) primarily interested in his own business interests. My personal interpretation is that the SCO business shows that this is not always true.
Besides, the support would come pouring in from all over the place. We'd probably get plenty of legal support donated to us.
Agreed. And that sort of thing probably helped get Dmitri Sklyarov out of jail. But my point is, he was _in_ jail for a couple of months.
in a case like this where we're actually in the right, the support would be tremendous.
The only reason we should even consider backing down on this is if there's a serious legal argument that keeping this list would somehow taint the rest of the encyclopedia. I highly doubt this is true, but I'm not a lawyer, and if a lawyer says this is plausible it's something we should look at hard.
The context of my comments was Jimmy Wales' comment in regard to the Encarta list:
Opinions of our legal team are divided about the issue,.
Lawyers looked at it and said _they weren't sure._ This is a discussion about what a prudent persons does when the lawyers say _they're not sure._ You can interpret this to mean: "They're not sure there's a problem, so let's not worry about it, and certainly lets not worry about a list of _Britannica_ articles, or a _modified_ list of Encara articles. Or you can interpret this to mean "That means they're not sure this is OK so let's back away a bit?"
When the lawyers say they're not sure, the question is whether the glass is half prudent or half paranoid,
But otherwise, if it's just a list, I don't see the problem. The worst reasonable case scenario is that we have to take it down.
I think _that's_ a very good point.
A long drawn out legal battle; a chance to set a precedent that can be used in the future; that'd probably be a good thing.
And that's where I part company with you. I am interested in helping to write an encyclopedia, not help fight in long drawn out legal battles.
-- Daniel P. B. Smith, dpbsmith@verizon.net "Elinor Goulding Smith's Great Big Messy Book" is now back in print! Sample chapter at http://world.std.com/~dpbsmith/messy.html Buy it at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1403314063/
Daniel P. B. Smith wrote:
From: Anthony DiPierro wikispam@inbox.org
Even then there is relatively little incentive for a traditional encyclopedia to attack Wikipedia in the first place.
I agree, but this assumes that the attacker is a) well-informed, b) rational, c) primarily interested in his own business interests. My personal interpretation is that the SCO business shows that this is not always true.
I would never start from the position that our potential opponents are poorly informed. Underestimating your enemy is a convenient way of losing.
There is nothing you can do to prevent lawsuits from those who want to act irrationally short of acting irrationally yourself.
If SCO's objective is to profit through litigating for license fees then their strategy is correct. A correct strategy does not imply that you will always win. It is correct strategy to be a pair of aces in the hole, but there are times when it doesn't work. We don't know how many smaller companies received legal letters from the SCO attorneys, and were satisfied to pay a $10,000 license fee to avoid litigation. It wouldn't be consistent with SCO's interests to go after the likes of Wikimedia because there is no financial reward to be gained; a simple injunction would not be enough to make the litigation worthwhile. Now they've gone all in against the big boys; it's a rational poker strategy.
Besides, the support would come pouring in from all over the place. We'd probably get plenty of legal support donated to us.
Agreed. And that sort of thing probably helped get Dmitri Sklyarov out of jail. But my point is, he was _in_ jail for a couple of months.
Jail is not a factor unless the copyright infringement is wilful. Any reasonable good-faith argument that our use is fair is enough to prevent that possibility.
in a case like this where we're actually in the right, the support would be tremendous.
The only reason we should even consider backing down on this is if there's a serious legal argument that keeping this list would somehow taint the rest of the encyclopedia. I highly doubt this is true, but I'm not a lawyer, and if a lawyer says this is plausible it's something we should look at hard.
The context of my comments was Jimmy Wales' comment in regard to the Encarta list:
Opinions of our legal team are divided about the issue,.
Lawyers looked at it and said _they weren't sure._ This is a discussion about what a prudent persons does when the lawyers say _they're not sure._ You can interpret this to mean: "They're not sure there's a problem, so let's not worry about it, and certainly lets not worry about a list of _Britannica_ articles, or a _modified_ list of Encara articles. Or you can interpret this to mean "That means they're not sure this is OK so let's back away a bit?"
When the lawyers say they're not sure, the question is whether the glass is half prudent or half paranoid,
It also means that reasonable doubt is in our favour.
But otherwise, if it's just a list, I don't see the problem. The worst reasonable case scenario is that we have to take it down.
I think _that's_ a very good point.
It's a key point. A reasoned position that a particular entry is fair use should be enough to carry us to the point where we receive a take down order. We should only need to consider the cost effectiveness of litigation if we choose to oppose the take down order. The irony with the Britannica material is that by the time we receive a take down order for that list there may be nothing left to take down. The progress in absorbing that material has been that fast. :-)
A long drawn out legal battle; a chance to set a precedent that can be used in the future; that'd probably be a good thing.
And that's where I part company with you. I am interested in helping to write an encyclopedia, not help fight in long drawn out legal battles.
I at least agree insofar as we don't go looking for fights, but there are times when we need to stand up for what we believe. Nevertheless, one of the factors in choosing our battles should be whether that battle serves our greater purpose.
On 8/29/05, Daniel P. B. Smith dpbsmith@verizon.net wrote:
From: Anthony DiPierro wikispam@inbox.org
Even then there is relatively little incentive for a traditional encyclopedia to attack Wikipedia in the first place.
I agree, but this assumes that the attacker is a) well-informed, b) rational, c) primarily interested in his own business interests. My personal interpretation is that the SCO business shows that this is not always true.
SCO didn't sue a non-profit charity, they sued the behometh IBM, along with Novell and AutoZone. Then RedHat sued *them* asking for a declaratory judgement. If you're going to draw an analogy between this and the SCO case, it would be like if SPI (makers of Debian) started ripping out sections of the Linux kernel in fear that SCO *might* sue them.
If anyone is going to go bankrupt there, it's SCO.
Besides, the support would come pouring in from all over
the place. We'd probably get plenty of legal support donated to us.
Agreed. And that sort of thing probably helped get Dmitri Sklyarov out of jail. But my point is, he was _in_ jail for a couple of months.
As Ray said, no one is going to go to jail here. Bringing that up only spreads paranoia.
The only reason we should even consider backing down on this is if
there's a serious legal argument that keeping this list would somehow taint the rest of the encyclopedia. I highly doubt this is true, but I'm not a lawyer, and if a lawyer says this is plausible it's something we should look at hard.
The context of my comments was Jimmy Wales' comment in regard to the Encarta list:
Opinions of our legal team are divided about the issue,.
Lawyers looked at it and said _they weren't sure._ This is a discussion about what a prudent persons does when the lawyers say _they're not sure._ You can interpret this to mean: "They're not sure there's a problem, so let's not worry about it, and certainly lets not worry about a list of _Britannica_ articles, or a _modified_ list of Encara articles. Or you can interpret this to mean "That means they're not sure this is OK so let's back away a bit?"
When the lawyers say they're not sure, the question is whether the glass is half prudent or half paranoid,
The way I interpreted it, the lawyers said they weren't sure whether or not it was legal for us to distribute the list. The question I was asking was whether or not it was possible for the list to taint the rest of the encyclopedia, such that even if we removed the list, the encyclopedia would still be infringing. If that's true, then we definitely need to remove the list. Of course, if that's true we have to do more than just remove the list anyway.
But otherwise, if it's just a list, I don't see the problem. The
worst reasonable case scenario is that we have to take it down.
I think _that's_ a very good point.
And it's essentially the whole of my argument.
A long drawn out legal battle; a chance to set a precedent that can be
used in the future; that'd probably be a good thing.
And that's where I part company with you. I am interested in helping to write an encyclopedia, not help fight in long drawn out legal battles.
Simply writing an encyclopedia might be all that you're interested, but Wikimedia goes well beyond that. In my opinion reducing the chilling effects of copyright law goes directly to the business of the charity. The sad thing is, we seem to be self-applying the chilling effects at this point.
Anthony