I have just had to deal with this - AGAIN - and would like to rail for a moment, hoping to provoke discussion to promote change. I posit that this is big enough to deserve a Foundation-wide venue for initial discussion so am including Wikitech-L.
Most of us are probably familiar with the cycle:
Person A on en.wp (or, any project) uploads an image which is apparently public domain or free use by any reasonable standard. It gets put on article X. There is much rejoicing.
Person B later thinks "Oh, this is something other projects might use, and it's 'free', so..." and uploads it to Commons. It then gets deleted at en.wp by a helpful bot.
Person C on Commons later identifies that it fails to be an entirely free piece under the much-stricter Commons rules, due to some factor that A and B were unaware of. Person C nominates it for deletion there. Poof. Gone.
Now, we have NO image, for something that is sufficiently legal under our rules and the law for use on en.wp (and likely, most of the rest of the projects). A delinker bot helpfully comes along and nukes references to the image off the pages that used to have it. Maintainers who miss the bot edit fail to notice that it's gone. Many months or years go along and finally someone notices, and either is an admin and restores the image on en.wp or finds an admin who restores it on en.wp.
Now, for someone who sees images as an integral part of the total READERSHIP value we present, in terms of helping people understand things by drawing their attention and expressing ideas and history in a visual manner, the long periods where we've lost all image are mind-numbingly counter to our core mission. That we've evolved into this cycle due to bureaucratic friction does not make it acceptable.
PROPOSED: This is not acceptable. Something must be done.
SUGGESTED FIX #1: Create a parallel "Uncommons" project, for shared images which meet minimum project legal non-copyvio standards but do not meet the threshold Commons is insisting on (or we have defined Commons to be). This requires coding in the WMF to allow a parallel project as image source, and would require that Commons' deletion process be modified such that deletions for copyright niggles be a shift-to-Uncommons rather than an outright delete.
SUGGESTED FIX #2: Stop deleting things from local projects when they're uploaded to commons. This requires additional diskspace from the Foundation (by some as-yet unknown amount). Ops team - Could you attempt to determine if this would be significant, troublesome, small enough to not be significant, etc?
These are not the only two possible solutions, but they come to mind immediately (and have previously when I thought of this). Additional fix concepts solicited and welcomed.
On 5 August 2013 08:36, George Herbert george.herbert@gmail.com wrote:
These are not the only two possible solutions, but they come to mind immediately (and have previously when I thought of this). Additional fix concepts solicited and welcomed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Do_not_move_to_Commons
Already exists.
Do you want to apply that to all millionish of our local media files, or do you want me to?
(ducks)
George William Herbert Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 5, 2013, at 5:05 PM, geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
On 5 August 2013 08:36, George Herbert george.herbert@gmail.com wrote:
These are not the only two possible solutions, but they come to mind immediately (and have previously when I thought of this). Additional fix concepts solicited and welcomed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Do_not_move_to_Commons
Already exists.
-- geni _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
On 5/08/2013 7:36 p.m., George Herbert wrote:
I have just had to deal with this - AGAIN - and would like to rail for a moment, hoping to provoke discussion to promote change. I posit that this is big enough to deserve a Foundation-wide venue for initial discussion so am including Wikitech-L.
It is probably one of the causes of the increasing backlog at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Articles_with_missing_files I had tried to clear the backlog but it is futile.
A
Suggested Fix 3, this is a problem of deletionism, and the best way to deal with delietionism is to stop deleting things and seek alternate solutions. In this case Commons deletion discussions need a "return to source Wiki" option as opposed to deletion of files migrated from other wikis. And those versions of Wikipedia that allow "Fair Use" need to think about importing files from each other, or even looking for files on more than one other wiki - first look on Commons and then look on those wikipedia that have the same fair use policy. But if Commons were to close more deletion debates as "it may be allowed there but not here so move it back" then most of the problem would go away.
The corollary of this and the obvious fourth option is to stop accepting "fair use" images and only host ones that are genuinely freely licensed
Jonathan
On 6 August 2013 03:04, Alan Liefting aliefting@ihug.co.nz wrote:
On 5/08/2013 7:36 p.m., George Herbert wrote:
I have just had to deal with this - AGAIN - and would like to rail for a moment, hoping to provoke discussion to promote change. I posit that this is big enough to deserve a Foundation-wide venue for initial discussion so am including Wikitech-L.
It is probably one of the causes of the increasing backlog at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Category:Articles_with_**missing_fileshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Articles_with_missing_files I had tried to clear the backlog but it is futile.
A
______________________________**_________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikien-lhttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
The problem is not just one of fair user images. A lot of the problem (at least when I dealt with it in the past) was about freely licensed images that were deemed unfit for commons because of things like trademarks, right of panorama, privacy rights of individuals, etc. English-language projects tend to take US law as a guide on those; Commons does less so, and things that are generally considered OK in the US are not necessarily permitted worldwide.
-Matthew
On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 12:11 AM, WereSpielChequers < werespielchequers@gmail.com> wrote:
Suggested Fix 3, this is a problem of deletionism, and the best way to deal with delietionism is to stop deleting things and seek alternate solutions. In this case Commons deletion discussions need a "return to source Wiki" option as opposed to deletion of files migrated from other wikis. And those versions of Wikipedia that allow "Fair Use" need to think about importing files from each other, or even looking for files on more than one other wiki - first look on Commons and then look on those wikipedia that have the same fair use policy. But if Commons were to close more deletion debates as "it may be allowed there but not here so move it back" then most of the problem would go away.
The corollary of this and the obvious fourth option is to stop accepting "fair use" images and only host ones that are genuinely freely licensed
Jonathan
On 6 August 2013 03:04, Alan Liefting aliefting@ihug.co.nz wrote:
On 5/08/2013 7:36 p.m., George Herbert wrote:
I have just had to deal with this - AGAIN - and would like to rail for a moment, hoping to provoke discussion to promote change. I posit that
this
is big enough to deserve a Foundation-wide venue for initial discussion
so
am including Wikitech-L.
It is probably one of the causes of the increasing backlog at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Category:Articles_with_**missing_files<
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Articles_with_missing_files%3E
I had tried to clear the backlog but it is futile.
A
______________________________**_________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikien-l<
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l%3E
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Having to delete things will be an ongoing problem because adding things is quite easy to do, so inevitably stuff that is not suitable will always be present and eventually put up for deletion. The old deletionist vs inclusionist and open vs restricted access arguments some into play.
Alan
On 6/08/2013 7:11 p.m., WereSpielChequers wrote:
Suggested Fix 3, this is a problem of deletionism, and the best way to deal with delietionism is to stop deleting things and seek alternate solutions. In this case Commons deletion discussions need a "return to source Wiki" option as opposed to deletion of files migrated from other wikis. And those versions of Wikipedia that allow "Fair Use" need to think about importing files from each other, or even looking for files on more than one other wiki - first look on Commons and then look on those wikipedia that have the same fair use policy. But if Commons were to close more deletion debates as "it may be allowed there but not here so move it back" then most of the problem would go away.
The corollary of this and the obvious fourth option is to stop accepting "fair use" images and only host ones that are genuinely freely licensed
Jonathan