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WikiReader Free Software and Free Contents (Thomas R. Koll) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 22:20:20 -0700 From: Stan Shebs &lt;shebs(a)apple.com&gt; Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Can we ban 172 now? And VV too! (in response to Fred Bauder) To: English Wikipedia &lt;wikien-l(a)Wikipedia.org&gt; Message-ID: &lt;40BEB514.8020303(a)apple.com&gt; Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed steven l. rubenstein wrote: It's perhaps unfortunate, but at least in the US, the 20th-century history specialty has become intensely politicized. It shouldn't be too surprising perhaps - there are lots of hints scattered through Wikipedia alone - but I wasn't aware of the full extent of it until researching some of the material about Robert Conquest, both online and in print. Revisionism and post-revisionism for Cold War history is just one facet; you have people being called "court historians" by their colleagues if they present an establishment point of view, you have people shopping around for politically-compatible departments, etc. I think money is a corrupting influence behind the scenes; there are lots of factions with $$$ to give out to historians who lean one way or the other. Public universities have also found themselves in difficult positions, having to choose between a history professor with locally unpopular views and continued funding from the state legislature. It's not just "liberal/Marxist scholars" either, there is a sizeable contingent on the other side too - just think of Daniel Pipes and his crowd. The unfortunate aspect for us poor Wikipedians is that it can be very hard to know what to make of the dueling experts. Is Conquest more or less authoritative than 172? Stan ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 22:25:02 -0700 From: Michael Snow &lt;wikipedia(a)earthlink.net&gt; Subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Can of worms: my new diet To: wikien-l(a)Wikipedia.org Message-ID: &lt;40BEB62E.3000109(a)earthlink.net&gt; Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Poor, Edmund W wrote: Now, now, Ed, even with the personal attacks thick upon the air here, you really should know better than to start comparing respectable contributors to worms. --Michael Snow (practicing the selective quotation and interpretation that seems to be so popular on this list) ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 11:26:38 +0000 From: "Abe Sokolov" &lt;abesokolov(a)hotmail.com&gt; Subject: [WikiEN-l] Response to Jack Lynch To: wikien-l(a)Wikipedia.org Message-ID: &lt;BAY7-F46g9S83w4bnN30002c80d(a)hotmail.com&gt; Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Re: "I don't feel 172 is reliable in regards to contentious issues" Why? Are you able to offer any evidence from my user history that I have insisted on the contribution of material that is inaccurate? If so, I'd appreciate it if you brought it to my attention, as I emphatically oppose the addition of dubious content on Wikipedia. That's what I do. How would you like it if I made that claim about you on the mailing list? To take this on the mailing list with no basis for making this claim, in a context that knowingly will diminish a user's credibility among a wide readership to me is the most debasing form of attack there is. These kinds of statements might be superficially "civil" in tone, but they're the remarks that truly do the most to spread mistrust and animosity among Wikipedia users. When I make off the cuff remarks on talk pages, they're brushed off and dismissed, as they should be. But the remarks that truly impugn a user's credibility and integrity aren't. But perhaps that was your point. _________________________________________________________________ Watch the online reality show Mixed Messages with a friend and enter to win a trip to NY http://www.msnmessenger-download.click-url.com/go/onm00200497ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 06:01:12 -0600 From: Fred Bauder &lt;fredbaud(a)ctelco.net&gt; Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Response to Jack Lynch To: English Wikipedia &lt;wikien-l(a)Wikipedia.org&gt; Message-ID: &lt;BCE46F28.3F66%fredbaud(a)ctelco.net&gt; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" It is mostly a matter of emphasis, of consistently editing articles to give a positive spin to totalitarian leftist political organizations. Admitting atrocities, but downplaying them is a tactic, the strategy is to present leftist totalitarianism in the most favorable light possible. Thus a naive reader is mislead by what appears to be an objective "academic" stance but is in fact just clever presentation of a distinct point of view. That the majority of the historians in the academic community support this view adds a figleaf. But on Wikipedia, everyone is free to edit any article, including those who are "politically incorrect". Fred ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 06:26:26 -0600 From: Fred Bauder &lt;fredbaud(a)ctelco.net&gt; Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Can we ban 172 now? And VV too! (in response to Fred Bauder) To: English Wikipedia &lt;wikien-l(a)Wikipedia.org&gt; Message-ID: &lt;BCE47512.3F6B%fredbaud(a)ctelco.net&gt; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I think we are getting down to the issue here. Academic politics are definitely involved. I find the book, In Denial: Historians, Communism & Espionage, by John Earl Haynes and Harvey Klehr, hardcover, ISBN 1893554724 to be useful in sorting these matters out. This book, of course, supports the traditionalist point of view as opposed to the revisionist school. Fred ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 13:30:30 +0000 From: "Abe Sokolov" &lt;abesokolov(a)hotmail.com&gt; Subject: [WikiEN-l] Response to Jack Lynch To: wikien-l(a)Wikipedia.org Message-ID: &lt;BAY7-F84KuFXFMnLW0l00054bf9(a)hotmail.com&gt; Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Fred, are you accusing me of strategizing to "downplay the atrocities of leftist totalitarianism?" If that's the case, then you are a liar. I do not do this, intentionally or unintentionally. Unless you're deliberately modeling yourself after Joe McCarthy, try to find a way to spew your political rants on the mailing list without hurting people and tearing them down in the process. BTW, please read Slrubenstein's posting (and try to comprehend). At the moment, I’m to pissed to be capable of expressing what’s he getting across clearly and politely. _________________________________________________________________ Watch the online reality show Mixed Messages with a friend and enter to win a trip to NY http://www.msnmessenger-download.click-url.com/go/onm00200497ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 10:57:56 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jack Lynch" &lt;jacklynch(a)excite.com&gt; Subject: RE: [WikiEN-l] Response to Jack Lynch To: wikien-l(a)Wikipedia.org Message-ID: &lt;20040603145756.5BA45109EE5(a)xprdmailfe1.nwk.excite.com&gt; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" --- On Thu 06/03, Abe Sokolov < abesokolov(a)hotmail.com > wrote: From: Abe Sokolov [mailto: abesokolov(a)hotmail.com] To: wikien-l(a)Wikipedia.org Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 11:26:38 +0000 Subject: [WikiEN-l] Response to Jack Lynch Re: "I don't feel 172 is reliable in regards to contentious issues"<br><br>Why? Are you able to offer any evidence from my user history that I have <br>insisted on the contribution of material that is inaccurate? If so, I'd <br>appreciate it if you brought it to my attention, as I emphatically oppose <br>the addition of dubious content on Wikipedia.<br><br>That's what I do. How would you like it if I made that claim about you on <br>the mailing list? To take this on the mailing list with no basis for making <br>this claim, in a context that knowingly will diminish a user's credibility <br>among a wide readership to me is the most debasing form of attack there is. <br>These kinds of statements might be superficially "civil" in tone, but <br>they're the remarks that truly do the most to spread mistrust and animosity <br>among Wikipedia users.<br><br>When I make off the cuff remarks on talk pages, they're brushed off and <br>dismissed, as they should be. But the remarks that tru ly impugn a user's <br>credibility and integrity aren't. But perhaps that was your point.<br><br> I have found you unreliable in some areas of politics or history because of your demeanor, not because of some specific factual inaccuracy.<br> Yours is a matter of POV, rudeness, and haughtiness, not one of fraud, falsification, or incompetance.<br> I understand that you feel that your expertise invalidates concerns of POV, or asigns you a superior intellectual status, but I assure you that you are mistaken.<br> That being said I have slowly noticed the general quality of your edits, and that gives me some reason to strive to see past your partisan persona.<br> The spiteful and uncompromising condescension which I encountered the first time we disagreed was not my first impression of you actually.<br> You made a fine impression, complimentary and pleasant when first we spoke, as I was seconding a self-nomination you placed as a brilliant prose candidate.<br> Jack<br><br> _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 10:52:00 -0500 From: Sheldon Rampton &lt;sheldon.rampton(a)verizon.net&gt; Subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Can we ban 172 now? And VV too! To: wikien-l(a)Wikipedia.org Message-ID: &lt;p06020443bce4f682198f(a)[10.255.72.22]&gt; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Stan Shebs wrote: The people who think that Abe *initiated* personal attacks should take another look at the title of this thread. This entire discussion is taking place in the context of an attack on Abe in which a proposal is on the table to ban him. Moreover, the discussion here has been mean-spirited and unfair. Abe posted the text of an article he wrote about the failings of the Soviet economy. I read the article, and I could see that it contained several clear, strong criticisms of Stalinist policies that hurt the economy. Nevertheless, Fred and others responded to the article by waxing nasty and sarcastic. They cherry-picked phrases out of the article that made it sound like Abe was blaming workers for poor productivity, and then threw in gratuitous accusations of being an apologist for dictators because in their opinion Fred's article didn't say enough about the Soviet gulags. As far as I can see, Fred is the one who initiated this attack, and he did it dishonestly. He has a different POV than Abe, and he's trying to resolve it by having him banned and by warring about the content of his article on this listserv. Sure, Abe shouldn't have called Fred "senile," but in the overall context of nasty discourse that has characterized this thread, I don't think Abe's comment stands out as being more egregious than the insults that have been thrown his way. --Sheldon Rampton ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 16:03:17 +0000 From: "Abe Sokolov" &lt;abesokolov(a)hotmail.com&gt; Subject: [WikiEN-l] Response to Jack Lynch To: wikien-l(a)Wikipedia.org Message-ID: &lt;BAY7-F67v1jNovUKF7n0000c402(a)hotmail.com&gt; Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Oh, now I remember that critical theory nomination. I'm sorry if I was being a bit harsh at the time (I was trying to react to your comments and not you personally). But still, that was really a good article, written for the most part by a well known philosopher and English language translator of Jürgen Habermas while he was contributing to Wikipedia I think that if you reread my comments, you'll find that they aren't as harsh as you're making them out to be. I might be wrong, but if I could remember correctly you said something to the effect of the prose sounding like "intellectual masturbation." I repied that that could be your ignorance. But at the same time, I admitted that I was ignorant of just about every other article nominated for featured status and pointing to the fact that I wasn't making likely-to-be uninformed criticisms of them. If anything, I was trying suggest that you might want to withhold your oppostion, that's all. BTW, at the time I think that I was also confusing you with another user with a similar user name. I hope that this clarification and apology will put the tensions between the two of us at bay -172 _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 18:19:51 +0200 From: "Thomas R. Koll" &lt;tomk32(a)gmx.de&gt; Subject: [WikiEN-l] WikiReader Free Software and Free Contents To: WikiEN-l &lt;wikien-l(a)wikipedia.org&gt; Message-ID: &lt;20040603161951.GC13324(a)tomk32.homelinux.org&gt; Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi folks, As you might have read on wikipedia-l or de:Wikipedia we have started to make PDFs out of our contents at de: Today I want announce to those who haven't heard about it yet, that I'm planning to do a WikiReader on Free Software and Free Contents. The plan is to get it done by June 9th as a kind of gift for the WOS3 conference in Berlin. Jimbo and Eloqunce will held speeches and there's the "Wikipedia Community Day". Generating the PDF and such is easy, but the time consumpting thing is finding a final TOC and extending some of the articles. I hope that some of you are interested in the topic and take a look at the current TOC. ciao, tom == External Links == * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiReader * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiReader/Free_Software_and_Free_Co… * http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiReader -- == Weblinks == * http://www.tomk32.de - just a geek trying to change the world * http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:TomK32 - Free Knowledge * http://tinyurl.com/27c88 - WikiReader Internet: bald im Druck * http://tomk32.bookcrossing.com - Free Books ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l End of WikiEN-l Digest, Vol 11, Issue 9 ***************************************