Fred writes:
I believe RK's material could and should probably be presented in several paragraphs. What he has done is a piece of original historical research,
Nonsense. I have done no original research at all. My only "sin" is that I made available very well known quotes that Danny and Zero want to hide. Thus the censorship.
These quotes were widely quoted on TV, radio, the web and in Arab newspapers. Ironically, on this issue there is more free speech in the Arab world than on Wikipedia.
which by citing particular statements made by Palestinians builds a strong case that at least some Palestinian leaders are insincere.
Please re-read my contributions; Unlike others, I have tried very hard to include _all_ points of view. I also have shown statements from Palestinian leaders who think that the peace process should be permanent and sincere. Both views exist. I cannot imagine why it is controversial to note this.
In an NPOV encyclopedia, we do not take sides with one group or another. Rather, we show the range of positions that exist, we document these positions with quotes and sources, and allow readers to make up their own minds.
This text may need to be edited, sure. But no one can edit it if it does not exist!
However due to my experiences with him I would hesitate to rely on what he has done as he has often composed this sort of lengthy detailed article which by framing the debate in his terms and sytematically misrepresenting opposing positions distorts the situation.
Fred is clearly insinuating that they really don't have the beliefs that they clearly say that they do, and that the only way we can come to such conclusions is through my "systematic misrepresentation". Fred is wrong. His position is only tenable if we assume that all Palestinians constantly lie about all of their beliefs. Some do lie, on occasion, but as these quotes show, the truth always shows through.
In any case, Fred also totally misses the point...that Palestinians have a number of points of view, not just one. That is why I included multiple POVs. His claims to the contrary are wrong. It is Fred and Danny who systematically represent the Arab views by hiding all quotes they disagree with, or denying their veracity.
Robert (RK)
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Robert rkscience100@yahoo.com writes:
Nonsense. I have done no original research at all. My only "sin" is that I made available very well known quotes that Danny and Zero want to hide. Thus the censorship.
No Robert. Your sin (besides the fact you called me a Nazi, for which I will not forgive you) is that you wrote the article as an entirely accurate piece of propaganda. As Ed sagely said, people -- yeah, even politicians -- say different things to different and what you did in this article was gather all the worst things Palestinian leaders said and dump them in one place.
Arafat has (many times) said terrible things about Israel and cynical things about the Peace Process. He has also said conciliatory things about both.
Your original draft of this article was composed of as many of the former as you could muster, and none of the latter. Then you represented these views as if they were the incontrovertible and steadfast beliefs of the entire Palestinian population (can you imagine an article entitled "US views of the Iraq Conflict" that suggested such a united front -- laughable.)
You did these things because you are -- like all of us -- are utterly incapable of being impartial in things that concern you closely.
That's why it was POV.
That's also why it shouldn't have been deleted. Theres a good article in there, showing how the stated views of the Palestinian leadership have changed over time -- and a corresponding one showing the vicissitudes of the Israeli leadership.
You and your various antagonists are *not* the people who should write them.
Gareth Owen wrote:
Your original draft of this article was composed of as many of the former as you could muster, and none of the latter. Then you represented these views as if they were the incontrovertible and steadfast beliefs of the entire Palestinian population (can you imagine an article entitled "US views of the Iraq Conflict" that suggested such a united front -- laughable.)
I can't speak on the original draft of the article, but in any event we are not now arguing about the original draft, but an edit war which broke out recently between Danny and Zero000 on the one hand, and RK on the other hand, about a large block of text that does not in any way meet the description that you give here.
You did these things because you are -- like all of us -- are utterly incapable of being impartial in things that concern you closely.
That's why it was POV.
But I think that this is unfair to RK (and all of us), and in particular this is unfair to the specific block of text in question. That block of text was not perfect, it could stand improvement, but we must not imagine that the text was anything other than what it was.
Self-evidently, if you read it, it was exactly what RK has said it was... a genuine effort to collect and present a variety of views that have been expressed by prominent Palestinians. For each quote, a certain degree of context was provided. For the entire set, care was taken to note where views (of Arafat, say) have changed, and so on.
Danny, like you, has a problem with RK. But in the current instance, this portrayal of the particular text in question is wrong. It isn't a one-sided screed at all. It cites reputable sources. It presents different viewpoints. It shows clearly that Palestinian views are diverse.
Maybe there are some egregious problems with the text that I haven't understood yet. But we should be careful to look at it with a fresh eye, and not misunderstand what's going on here, which is Danny engaging in deleting text repeatedly while refusing to work with someone who is very much trying to write a balanced text.
--Jimbo
Fred has never edited the article.
Fred
From: Robert rkscience100@yahoo.com Reply-To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@Wikipedia.org Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:13:00 -0800 (PST) To: wikien-l@Wikipedia.org Subject: [WikiEN-l] NPOV means that we acknowledge all views
It is Fred and Danny who systematically represent the Arab views by hiding all quotes they disagree with, or denying their veracity.