Re: [WikiEN-l] Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

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Daniel P. B. Smith

6 Feb 2007 6 Feb '07

10:36 a.m.

...

I do not believe Jews are singled out. Every other ethnicity has people after them. Jews are the only ethnicity without it. - Cool Cat

It's not an ethnicity; it's a religion. Ec

Old joke: Q: What is a Jew? A: A person who asks, "what is a Jew?"

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Alphax (Wikipedia email)

6 Feb 6 Feb

11:21 a.m.

New subject: Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

Daniel P. B. Smith wrote:

...

I do not believe Jews are singled out. Every other ethnicity has people after them. Jews are the only ethnicity without it. - Cool Cat

It's not an ethnicity; it's a religion. Ec

Old joke: Q: What is a Jew? A: A person who asks, "what is a Jew?"

Cool Cat

8 Feb 8 Feb

5:45 p.m.

New subject: Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

I am not concerned what "Jew" supposed to be, please save me the lecture... I know its complicated. That is not the point of this inquiry. I am only concerned at what Jew supposed to be on [[Category:Jews]]. I do not understand the inclusion criteria and there is no explanation. Categories should have one and only one purpose: a reliable navigation aid. So what is [[Category:Jew]] supposed to cover? Ethnicity? Religion? Race? Type here? It cannot be all/some of the above. Maybe a [[Category:Jew]] and seperate [[Category:Jewish people]] could be considered. I'd like to add that I was unaware that we were categorizing people by religion... It feels kinda redundant... Everybody has a religion and it can be just as easily mentioned in the article... Why need the category? - Cool Cat On 2/6/07, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Daniel P. B. Smith wrote:

I do not believe Jews are singled out. Every other ethnicity has people after them. Jews are the only ethnicity without it. - Cool Cat

It's not an ethnicity; it's a religion. Ec

Old joke: Q: What is a Jew? A: A person who asks, "what is a Jew?"

YYUR YYUB ICUR YY4ME -- Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia "We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Ray Saintonge

5:54 p.m.

New subject: Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

Cool Cat wrote:

...

Everybody has a religion ...

Yhat statement is utter nonsense! Ec

Cool Cat

6:42 p.m.

New subject: Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

What part of it is nonsense? - Cool Cat On 2/8/07, Ray Saintonge <saintonge(a)telus.net> wrote:

...

Cool Cat wrote:

Everybody has a religion ...

Yhat statement is utter nonsense! Ec _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Ray Saintonge

7:07 p.m.

New subject: Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

Cool Cat wrote:

...

What part of it is nonsense? - Cool Cat On 2/8/07, Ray Saintonge wrote: >Cool Cat wrote: > > >>Everybody has a religion ... >> >> >Yhat statement is utter nonsense! > >Ec >

All of it. I do not have a religion, and I find it insulting to suggest that I do. I'm confident that I am not alone in that view. Ec

Cool Cat

8:07 p.m.

New subject: Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

You might want to stay away from the mailing lists if you are that fragile. The point of the mailing list is to discuss wikipedia related stuff, not your personal beliefs or whatever. Just to satisfy you, I want to amend my comment. "Almost anyone has a religion". [[Category:People who do not have a religion]] is just as bad as [[Category:People who do have a religion]]/[[Category:People who are from 'type religion here']] in any case. Cool Cat On 2/8/07, Ray Saintonge <saintonge(a)telus.net> wrote:

...

Cool Cat wrote:

What part of it is nonsense? - Cool Cat On 2/8/07, Ray Saintonge wrote: >Cool Cat wrote: > > >>Everybody has a religion ... >> >> >Yhat statement is utter nonsense! > >Ec >

All of it. I do not have a religion, and I find it insulting to suggest that I do. I'm confident that I am not alone in that view. Ec _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Ray Saintonge

9 Feb 9 Feb

5:56 a.m.

New subject: Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

Cool Cat wrote:

...

You might want to stay away from the mailing lists if you are that fragile. The point of the mailing list is to discuss wikipedia related stuff, not your personal beliefs or whatever.

Sorry, but I thought that you had started this thread to push your own beliefs.

...

Just to satisfy you, I want to amend my comment. "Almost anyone has a religion".

:-P

...

[[Category:People who do not have a religion]] is just as bad as [[Category:People who do have a religion]]/[[Category:People who are from 'type religion here']] in any case.

Yonatan Horan

9:18 a.m.

New subject: Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

Jewish is not only a religion but also a race. Someone can be an atheist and still Jewish. For example, I personally don't really believe in god but I'm still a Jew. Heh, I was about to automatically add ~~~~... Yonatan On 2/8/07, Ray Saintonge <saintonge(a)telus.net> wrote:

...

Cool Cat wrote:

You might want to stay away from the mailing lists if you are that

fragile.

The point of the mailing list is to discuss wikipedia related stuff, not your personal beliefs or whatever.

Sorry, but I thought that you had started this thread to push your own beliefs.

Just to satisfy you, I want to amend my comment. "Almost anyone has a religion".

:-P

[[Category:People who do not have a religion]] is just as bad as [[Category:People who do have a religion]]/[[Category:People who are

from

'type religion here']] in any case.

The logical conclusion from that is tht we should not have religious categories at all. If that's the case why are we even bpthering with any distinction between Jews and Jewish people. We could be deleting both. Ec _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Mets501

9:38 a.m.

New subject: Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

...

Jewish is not only a religion but also a race. Someone can be an atheist

and

...

still Jewish. For example, I personally don't really believe in god but

I'm

...

still a Jew. Heh, I was about to automatically add ~~~~... Yonatan

Judaism is not a race. There is nothing biologically which separates a Jew(ish person) from a non-Jew(ish person). It is OK to call it a culture, but not a race. --Mets501

ikiroid

10:23 a.m.

New subject: Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

I am personally apathetic towards the whole issue, but I'd like to point out to Mets that I've while I've met a large amount of people who consider the word a slur, and Judaism simply a religion, I've also met a decent amount of people (both Jewish and non-Jewish) who feel the exact opposite. I was at a seminar awhile back for a certain disorder that one of my family members has, and a during Q & A a Rabbi in the audience commented about how nice it was to see science paying attention to a disease in which a significant percentage of those who had it were "Ashkenazi Jews" [sic]. In science, certain ethnic groups which contain "Jew" in the title (such as Ashkenazi) are considered distinct gene pools.

Ray Saintonge

11 Feb 11 Feb

3:48 p.m.

New subject: Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

ikiroid wrote:

...

I was at a seminar awhile back for a certain disorder that one of my family members has, and a during Q & A a Rabbi in the audience commented about how nice it was to see science paying attention to a disease in which a significant percentage of those who had it were "Ashkenazi Jews" [sic]. In science, certain ethnic groups which contain "Jew" in the title (such as Ashkenazi) are considered distinct gene pools.

"Ashkenazim" alone would suffice, but I can understand that in a group with mixed religious backgrounds the word might not be a familiar one. Ec

Yonatan Horan

9 Feb 9 Feb

8:53 p.m.

New subject: Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

...

Jewish is not only a religion but also a race. Someone can be an atheist

and

still Jewish. For example, I personally don't really believe in god but

I'm

still a Jew. Heh, I was about to automatically add ~~~~... Yonatan

Judaism is not a race. There is nothing biologically which separates a Jew(ish person) from a non-Jew(ish person). It is OK to call it a culture, but not a race. --Mets501 _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Ray Saintonge

11 Feb 11 Feb

3:44 p.m.

New subject: Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

Yonatan Horan wrote:

...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews#Specific_diseases I suggest you look at that. In addition to that, I remember seeing some research papers published on Ashkenazi Jews and will look for them if you really see the need. Just to support the above point, my cousin who is an Ashkenazi Jew has Familial Dysautonomy and my other cousin who is also an Ashkenazi Jew has Crohn's Disease. -Yonatan On 2/9/07, Mets501 <mets501wiki(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>Jewish is not only a religion but also a race. Someone can be an atheist and >> >> >>still Jewish. For example, I personally don't really believe in god but I'm >> >> >>still a Jew. >> >>Yonatan >> >> >Judaism is not a race. There is nothing biologically which separates a >Jew(ish person) from a non-Jew(ish person). >It is OK to call it a culture, but not a race. >--Mets501 >

I respectfully hold that treating Jews as a race is fraught with problems. The epidemiological evidence cited may very well suggest racial characteristics among the Ashykenazim, but that says nothing about the Sephardim. To what extent do they share the same congenital diseases? I would even suggest that Ashkenazim and Sephardim are racially more different than Catholics and Protestants. The genetic disease have most likely evolved as a byproduct of inbreeding over multiple generations. The belief, as expressed in the article that you cite, that a Jew does not cut ties with being a Jew by the simple expedient of disclaiming being Jewish can have devastating political ramifications when applied by those with a strong dislike of Jews. Ec

jayjg

12 Feb 12 Feb

6:40 a.m.

New subject: Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

On 2/11/07, Ray Saintonge <saintonge(a)telus.net> wrote:

...

Yonatan Horan wrote:

You'd be wrong, though. http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/97/12/6769 Jay.

Cool Cat

7:27 p.m.

New subject: Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

This actually points out the real problem rather well. Categorization should be done carefully. Mixing religion with ethnicity is just asking for trouble in categorization. - Cool Cat On 2/12/07, jayjg <jayjg99(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On 2/11/07, Ray Saintonge <saintonge(a)telus.net> wrote:

Yonatan Horan wrote: >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews#Specific_diseases > >I suggest you look at that. In addition to that, I remember seeing some >research papers published on Ashkenazi Jews and will look for them if

you

>really see the need. Just to support the above point, my cousin who is

>Ashkenazi Jew has Familial Dysautonomy and my other cousin who is also

>Ashkenazi Jew has Crohn's Disease. > >-Yonatan > >On 2/9/07, Mets501 <mets501wiki(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > >>>Jewish is not only a religion but also a race. Someone can be an

atheist and

>>> >>> >>>still Jewish. For example, I personally don't really believe in god

but I'm

>>> >>> >>>still a Jew. >>> >>>Yonatan >>> >>> >>Judaism is not a race. There is nothing biologically which separates

>Jew(ish person) from a non-Jew(ish person). >It is OK to call it a culture, but not a race. >--Mets501 >

You'd be wrong, though. http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/97/12/6769 Jay. _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

jayjg

13 Feb 13 Feb

10:47 p.m.

New subject: Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

On 2/12/07, Cool Cat <wikipedia.kawaii.neko(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

This actually points out the real problem rather well.

I have no idea what you mean; what "problem" does it "point out... rather well"?

...

Categorization should be done carefully. Mixing religion with ethnicity is just asking for trouble in categorization.

Categories have to mirror real-life though, and Jews don't fit the neat separations of ethnicity and religion that you might prefer in some "ideal" world. Jay.

Cool Cat

14 Feb 14 Feb

12:33 a.m.

New subject: Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

You misunderstand. We can have [[Category:Jew (religon)]] [[Category:Jew (ethicity)]] and not [[Category:Jew]]. The thing is category should be used for one thing. The term being a confusing one only supports this separation. - Cool Cat On 2/13/07, jayjg <jayjg99(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On 2/12/07, Cool Cat <wikipedia.kawaii.neko(a)gmail.com> wrote:

This actually points out the real problem rather well.

I have no idea what you mean; what "problem" does it "point out... rather well"?

Categorization should be done carefully. Mixing religion with ethnicity is just asking for

trouble

in categorization.

Categories have to mirror real-life though, and Jews don't fit the neat separations of ethnicity and religion that you might prefer in some "ideal" world. Jay. _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Ray Saintonge

3:13 p.m.

New subject: Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

jayjg wrote:

...

On 2/11/07, Ray Saintonge wrote:

Yonatan Horan wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews#Specific_diseases I suggest you look at that. In addition to that, I remember seeing some research papers published on Ashkenazi Jews and will look for them if you really see the need. Just to support the above point, my cousin who is an Ashkenazi Jew has Familial Dysautonomy and my other cousin who is also an Ashkenazi Jew has Crohn's Disease. On 2/9/07, Mets501 wrote: >>Jewish is not only a religion but also a race. Someone can be an atheist and >>still Jewish. For example, I personally don't really believe in god but I'm >>still a Jew. >> >> >Judaism is not a race. There is nothing biologically which separates a >Jew(ish person) from a non-Jew(ish person). >It is OK to call it a culture, but not a race. > >

I respectfully hold that treating Jews as a race is fraught with problems. The epidemiological evidence cited may very well suggest racial characteristics among the Ashkenazim, but that says nothing about the Sephardim. To what extent do they share the same congenital diseases? I would even suggest that Ashkenazim and Sephardim are racially more different than Catholics and Protestants.

You'd be wrong, though. http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/97/12/6769

Thanks. Rather than venturing forth with foolish responses, I will need to study the article in greater detail before pursuing this line of thought, and its implications. Ec

Oskar Sigvardsson

8 Feb 8 Feb

8:09 p.m.

New subject: Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

On 2/8/07, Ray Saintonge <saintonge(a)telus.net> wrote:

...

All of it. I do not have a religion, and I find it insulting to suggest that I do. I'm confident that I am not alone in that view.

You're not.

Cool Cat

8:21 p.m.

New subject: Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

Please kill of the flame war bordering nonsense and stay on topic. On 2/8/07, Oskar Sigvardsson <oskarsigvardsson(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On 2/8/07, Ray Saintonge <saintonge(a)telus.net> wrote:

All of it. I do not have a religion, and I find it insulting to suggest that I do. I'm confident that I am not alone in that view.

You're not. _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l