I would be dead set against 'List of Americans'. America has two meanings. It can be state-specific, the US, or geography-specific, the continent of America. We have to be ultra-careful to remember that Wiki is meant to be a world-wide sourcebook, which means avoiding causing (1) confusion, (2) unnecessary offence, (3) inaccuracy.
'Claiming' US = America sets a precedent that poses the question, what to we call the 'continent' and how do we refer to people on the continent who are not resident in the US? 'Non-American Americans?'
This same problem exists on the island of Ireland. Ireland can mean one island or two political entities, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, with half the people on Northern Ireland not wanting to be called Irish (and taking high offence in being called Irish) and half 'demanding' it. The solution there is to call the political entities by their formal name, and the geographic entity (the island) simply as Ireland. (And run a mile from a 'List of Irish people' - Calling Ian Paisley Irish and you'd be picking your teeth up from the ground. Call Gerry Adams 'British' and you'd be trying to find your kneecaps!)
The same is true in the UK. England is NOT the island it is on. Using England to mean everyone on the island on Great Britain 'english' is liable to get you a punch in the face from people in Scotland and Wales, who will tell you 'we are bloody well not English and how dare you suggest it!' Just because a lot of people thousands of miles might call everyone from that island 'English' would be NO EXCUSE for us doing it. Ditto with America. Call the geographic entity 'America' but those who could from the various counties/states by the political entity, US, Canada, Mexico.
It may seem pedantic but this is a SERIOUS sourcebook here, not a game where we adopt the attitude 'ah shucks, who cares?' Canadians aren't going to take a sourcebook seriously that acts as though they don't exist and usupts the name of the continent they share for 'one' bit of the continent' just as Scottish people will treat as rubbish a sourcebook that calls everyone on the island of Great Britain as english, Norwegians would hit the roof if we presumed that everyone in Scandanavia was Swedish, and the Portuguese would practically declare war (without even having a George Bush!) if we called everyone on Iberia Spanish. (And anyone who talks about Ireland as being part of the British Isles - or worse still calls us 'British', which still happens, would be told in no uncertain manner to 'fuck off, you ignorant wanker!')
So be VERY VERY careful with terminology, if you want Wikipedia to be taken seriously out there.
JT.
The first one is stupid, the second one is all right, I suggested [[List of people from the United States]], and nobody even commented on that.
Zoe
mail pholango@yahoo.com wrote:it looks like we will have a vote to decide what to call notable u.s. citizens. the top two choices are "people from the united states" or "americans"
[[Talk:List of United States people]]
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There is no need to discuss this on the mailing list. It's been discussed to death on two different talk pages. As it now stands, if it doesn't go to [[List of Americans]], I will object to anything other than [[List of people from the United States]]. Zoe
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Nonsense. Do you really think that there is anyone in the entire world who would actually be unsure whether [[Pierre Trudeau]] belonged on a [[List of Americans]]?
-----Original Message----- From: wikien-l-admin@wikipedia.org [mailto:wikien-l-admin@wikipedia.org]On Behalf Of james duffy Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 20:59 To: wikien-l@wikipedia.org Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] election
I would be dead set against 'List of Americans'. America has two meanings. It can be state-specific, the US, or geography-specific, the continent of America. We have to be ultra-careful to remember that Wiki is meant to be a world-wide sourcebook, which means avoiding causing (1) confusion, (2) unnecessary offence, (3) inaccuracy.
'Claiming' US = America sets a precedent that poses the question, what to we call the 'continent' and how do we refer to people on the continent who are not resident in the US? 'Non-American Americans?'
This same problem exists on the island of Ireland. Ireland can mean one island or two political entities, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, with half the people on Northern Ireland not wanting to be called Irish (and taking high offence in being called Irish) and half 'demanding' it. The solution there is to call the political entities by their formal name, and the geographic entity (the island) simply as Ireland. (And run a mile from a 'List of Irish people' - Calling Ian Paisley Irish and you'd be picking your teeth up from the ground. Call Gerry Adams 'British' and you'd be trying to find your kneecaps!)
The same is true in the UK. England is NOT the island it is on. Using England to mean everyone on the island on Great Britain 'english' is liable to get you a punch in the face from people in Scotland and Wales, who will tell you 'we are bloody well not English and how dare you suggest it!' Just because a lot of people thousands of miles might call everyone from that island 'English' would be NO EXCUSE for us doing it. Ditto with America. Call the geographic entity 'America' but those who could from the various counties/states by the political entity, US, Canada, Mexico.
It may seem pedantic but this is a SERIOUS sourcebook here, not a game where we adopt the attitude 'ah shucks, who cares?' Canadians aren't going to take a sourcebook seriously that acts as though they don't exist and usupts the name of the continent they share for 'one' bit of the continent' just as Scottish people will treat as rubbish a sourcebook that calls everyone on the island of Great Britain as english, Norwegians would hit the roof if we presumed that everyone in Scandanavia was Swedish, and the Portuguese would practically declare war (without even having a George Bush!) if we called everyone on Iberia Spanish. (And anyone who talks about Ireland as being part of the British Isles - or worse still calls us 'British', which still happens, would be told in no uncertain manner to 'fuck off, you ignorant wanker!')
So be VERY VERY careful with terminology, if you want Wikipedia to be taken seriously out there.
JT.
james duffy wrote:
It may seem pedantic but this is a SERIOUS sourcebook here, not a game where we adopt the attitude 'ah shucks, who cares?' Canadians aren't going to take a sourcebook seriously that acts as though they don't exist
I think that your discussion of Ireland and "Irish" and so forth is right-on, but really we're talking about common usage, right?
In today's Globe and Mail,
http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030228.wxedit0228/BNStory/...
there's an editorial about MP Carolyn Parrish, who has caused a bit of a dust-up Wednesday when -- after she thought she was no longer on camera -- she said "Damn Americans, I hate those bastards."
Without commenting on her sentiment, I think it's pretty clear that she accepts the use of the term "American" to refer to the United States.
Doing a search on the term "American" in Canadian, British, and Australian newspapers reveals that all of them use the term to mean the United States.
I do think we need to follow common usage, and to avoid controversial usages. But I don't think this is a good example at all. It simply isn't true that a serious resource shouldn't use that term in that way. Serious sources do, all the time.
Is it odd that this is conventional usage? I don't know, and as an encyclopedia, we shouldn't take a position on it.
--Jimbo