Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 13:32:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Daniel Ehrenberg littledanehren@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Welcome back Adam To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@Wikipedia.org Message-ID: 20030927203232.1685.qmail@web41804.mail.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Rick giantsrick13@yahoo.com wrote:
Dan,
I'm newer than you, and I've still seen how Lir likes to confuse things with multiple names. What do you mean, you don't know why he'd want to use
two
logins? Because it's the way he makes things difficult for the rest of us.
RickK
[I think] some people are still arguing that PP is not Adam. I'm not. I guess I shouldn't try to be NPOV on the mailing list. LDan
Dan, could you drop that matter please ? It does not matter whether Adam log in as PP or Lir or The Pope. She was given the right to edit again, and that is all there is to say about it. Could she do it without you people going on forever chatting about her, and watching any of her move ? She is not an insect to look under a magnifying glass ! Let her breathe !
please !
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Dan, could you drop that matter please ? It does not matter whether Adam log in as PP or Lir or The Pope. She was given the right to edit again, and that is all there is to say about it. Could she do it without you people going on forever chatting about her, and watching any of her move ? She is not an insect to look under a magnifying glass ! Let her breathe !
please !
I'm sorry. I missed a previous email, and I don't really care what he edits under. LDan
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She was given the right to edit again, and
He. Lir is a he :)
===== Christopher Mahan chris_mahan@yahoo.com 818.943.1850 cell http://www.christophermahan.com/
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Christopher Mahan wrote:
He. Lir is a he :)
Lir often self-identifies as female, especially online (more often female than male is my estimate from her online diary); and to my knowledge she has self-identified only as female on Wikipedia, except occasional use of the name "Adam", which is typically male. (Unless your post was meant to say that this has changed? I can't be certain of Lir's current preferences.)
Transgender Etiquette from http://www.mlp.org/resources/mlptgn.html:
Always address and treat individuals in the manner in which they are expressing themselves. Use names and pronouns appropriate to the expressed (rather than the genetic or legal) gender. Give the same respect that you would expect for yourself.
It always works best if use of congruent gender references is practiced at all times, including when out of earshot of the TG individual (i.e., don't use different pronouns outside of his/her presence).
-- Toby
At 05:59 AM 9/29/2003, you wrote:
Always address and treat individuals in the manner inwhich they are expressing themselves. Use names and pronouns appropriate to the expressed (rather than the genetic or legal) gender. Give the same respect that you would expect for yourself.
Of course, if Lir/Adam/Pizza Puzzle would show all of US the respect of picking a set of pronouns and damn well sticking to them, this wouldn't be a problem. The problem arises because he/she/it can't just use one identity consistently... that's his/her/its problem, not mine.
I'm prefectly happy to call L/A/PP he, she, it, or what have you, but I'm not changing pronouns on the whim of someone who can't decide which identity they're going to be using on a regular basis. Since a majority of the identities that I'm familiar with from this individual are male (as near as I can tell), I'm going with male.
Therefore, if he has a problem with that, he can tell me.
----- Dante Alighieri dalighieri@digitalgrapefruit.com
"The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of great moral crisis." -Dante Alighieri, 1265-1321
Of course, if Lir/Adam/Pizza Puzzle would show all of US the respect of picking a set of pronouns and damn well sticking to them, this wouldn't be a problem. The problem arises because he/she/it can't just use one identity consistently... that's his/her/its problem, not mine.
I'm prefectly happy to call L/A/PP he, she, it, or what have you, but I'm not changing pronouns on the whim of someone who can't decide which identity they're going to be using on a regular basis. Since a majority of the identities that I'm familiar with from this individual are male (as near as I can tell), I'm going with male.
Therefore, if he has a problem with that, he can tell me.
I thought we agreed to call em Adam, but if E doesn't like that, we can always use [[Spivak pronoun]]s and call em Lir, as E seems to like that the best (although it's unclear what gender that would imply). LDan
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At 12:30 PM 9/29/2003, you wrote:
I thought we agreed to call em Adam, but if E doesn't like that, we can always use [[Spivak pronoun]]s and call em Lir, as E seems to like that the best (although it's unclear what gender that would imply). LDan
This is the point that I exit the conversation.. the next thing you know someone will mention sie and hir and that just always puts me into a mood to stab people... G'nite folks! Thank you Cleveland!!! Rock on!
----- Dante Alighieri dalighieri@digitalgrapefruit.com
"The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of great moral crisis." -Dante Alighieri, 1265-1321
Dante Alighieri wrote:
At 12:30 PM 9/29/2003, you wrote:
I thought we agreed to call em Adam, but if E doesn't like that, we can always use [[Spivak pronoun]]s and call em Lir, as E seems to like that the best (although it's unclear what gender that would imply). LDan
This is the point that I exit the conversation.. the next thing you know someone will mention sie and hir and that just always puts me into a mood to stab people... G'nite folks! Thank you Cleveland!!! Rock on!
Indeed, my reaction as well. I use [[singular they]] or avoid using pronouns altogether.
-- Jake
Jake-
This is the point that I exit the conversation.. the next thing you know someone will mention sie and hir and that just always puts me into a mood to stab people... G'nite folks! Thank you Cleveland!!! Rock on!
Indeed, my reaction as well. I use [[singular they]] or avoid using pronouns altogether.
:-) Everyone hates "sie and hir", except for some really strange people (i.e. potential Wikipedians). Using "sie and hir" is one of those things which you can only do on the Internet, because if you did it in real life, violence would almost certainly result. The most idiotic thing about it is that "sie" is actually German for "she", so if you speak German, the pain factor increases about tenfold. Which makes it eligible for being illegal torture under international human rights conventions.
Regards,
Erik
Heh... I think we just hit Moller's Law
( http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-July/005369.html )
Regards
sannse
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dante Alighieri" dalighieri@digitalgrapefruit.com To: "English Wikipedia" wikien-l@Wikipedia.org Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 8:33 PM Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Welcome back Adam
At 12:30 PM 9/29/2003, you wrote:
I thought we agreed to call em Adam, but if E doesn't like that, we can always use [[Spivak pronoun]]s and call em Lir, as E seems to like that the best (although it's unclear what gender that would imply). LDan
This is the point that I exit the conversation.. the next thing you know someone will mention sie and hir and that just always puts me into a mood to stab people... G'nite folks! Thank you Cleveland!!! Rock on!
Dante Alighieri dalighieri@digitalgrapefruit.com
"The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of great moral crisis." -Dante Alighieri, 1265-1321
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
sannse sannse@delphiforums.com wrote: Heh... I think we just hit Moller's Law
( http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2003-July/005369.html )
Regards
sannse -----
And I mispelled it, apparently its Moeller -- except on Kuroshin, where its Moller with the dots thing over the 'o.'
~S~
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Dante Alighieri wrote:
Toby Bartels wrote:
Always address and treat individuals in the manner inwhich they are expressing themselves. Use names and pronouns appropriate to the expressed (rather than the genetic or legal) gender. Give the same respect that you would expect for yourself.
Of course, if Lir/Adam/Pizza Puzzle would show all of US the respect of picking a set of pronouns and damn well sticking to them, this wouldn't be a problem. The problem arises because he/she/it can't just use one identity consistently... that's his/her/its problem, not mine.
As I mentioned in my previous post, I've only noticed Lir going by a female persona on Wikipedia. But since the most recent names (through Pizza Puzzle) are gender-neutral and people don't usually refer to themselves in the third person, I really can't be certain about that (without going through all of her various old edits) -- an uncertainty that I /also/ mentioned in my previous post.
So if you're saying that Lir has called herself male here, then that's fine. (Please clarify if that's what you were doing.)
But that's not really what I was talking about at all. Since I've never seen Lir /object/ to a male pronoun either, I have no objection to your using a male pronoun. That would be for Lir to object to, not me! I was responding to another Wikipedian's post telling anth�re that female pronouns are /wrong/. Unless Lir has changed her mind, then that's not so.
But anth�re and I may both have missed something; so by all means, if Lir has rejected female pronouns, then that's fine with me if somebody will just let me know. But the only objections to such pronouns on this mailing list are from /other/ people, based on (if anything) the rather irrelevant fact that Adam has a male legal name and, apparently, a male physical body. I'm hardly going to pretend that I can tell you what to call Lir, but don't pretend that you can tell me what to call her either.
I'm prefectly happy to call L/A/PP he, she, it, or what have you, but I'm not changing pronouns on the whim of someone who can't decide which identity they're going to be using on a regular basis. Since a majority of the identities that I'm familiar with from this individual are male (as near as I can tell), I'm going with male.
Therefore, if he has a problem with that, he can tell me.
I'm sure he will. I don't have a problem with it. And since the plurality of Adam's identities that I'm familiar with (including some from outside Wikipedia) are female, I'm going with female until Lir herself tells me otherwise. I don't see any need for a conflict between you and me.
-- Toby
--- Toby Bartels toby+wikipedia@math.ucr.edu wrote:
Lir often self-identifies as female, especially online (more often female than male is my estimate from her online diary); and to my knowledge she has self-identified only as female on Wikipedia, except occasional use of the name "Adam", which is typically male. (Unless your post was meant to say that this has changed? I can't be certain of Lir's current preferences.)
Transgender Etiquette from http://www.mlp.org/resources/mlptgn.html:
Always address and treat individuals in the manner inwhich they are expressing themselves. Use names and pronouns appropriate to the expressed (rather than the genetic or legal) gender. Give the same respect that you would expect for yourself.
It always works best if use of congruent gender references is practiced at all times, including when out of earshot of the TG individual (i.e., don't use different pronouns outside of his/her presence).
-- Toby
I hear you, but it sure makes things confusing. Adam is a he, Lir is a she, but Adam is Lir. Mmmm...
===== Christopher Mahan chris_mahan@yahoo.com 818.943.1850 cell http://www.christophermahan.com/
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Christopher Mahan wrote:
I hear you, but it sure makes things confusing. Adam is a he, Lir is a she, but Adam is Lir. Mmmm...
That's actually a pretty common situation among transgendered people. And I'm not sure that Adam would really qualify as transgendered -- I've never seen him self-identify with that word, for one thing. The main point is that people can have several different personas -- in Lir's case, we're very familiar with that! In these situations, mistakes are inevitable, and everybody should be cautious about stating that one usage is right and another usage is wrong (except, of course, when one is discussing oneself!).
If people are interested in Lir's variety of personas, I would recommend her diary http://qwert.diaryland.com/. This contains, among other things, transcripts of IM conversations that she holds with herself -- some personas male, some female, most not identified one way or another.
(OTOH, I'm not sure that Adam /wants/ us all reading his diary. I can only say that he doesn't object when /I/ comment on it.)
-- Toby