On 4/15/07, Guy Chapman aka JzG <guy.chapman(a)spamcop.net> wrote: Ha. -- geni

On 4/15/07, Jeff Raymond <jeff.raymond(a)internationalhouseofbacon.com> wrote: I'm sure you want to outline "abusive" and "improper"... Michael

On Sun, 15 Apr 2007, Guy Chapman aka JzG wrote: The comments in the deletion review indicate that it is not a blog. It takes (and may reject) submissions, and has editorial oversight. Further, someone provided a quote from Jimbo supporting the use of similar sources.

On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 10:31:54 -0400 (EDT), "Jeff Raymond" <jeff.raymond(a)internationalhouseofbacon.com> wrote: Yup, because it explicitly endorses rewriting from sources, which means that instead of the truly fatuous argument that we should undelete a defamatory and inaccurate biography "because she's notable" we can now get on with wiring a biography which *isn't* defamatory and inaccurate. An excellent result all round. Guy (JzG) -- http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG

Sam Blacketer wrote: That tends to happen when we rush out a policy to counter bad public relations. Did I say that out loud? -Jeff -- Name: Jeff Raymond E-mail: jeff.raymond(a)internationalhouseofbacon.com WWW: http://www.internationalhouseofbacon.com IM: badlydrawnjeff Quote: "I was always a fan of Lisa Loeb, particularly because you kind of get the impression she sang every song either about or to her cats. They seem to be the driving force in most of her creative process." - Chuck Klosterman

Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia) wrote: I think we're leaning too far toward the "shoot first" mentality, honestly, and when it results in a complete deletion, that's a problem. Remove possibly libellious commentary? Okay. Make no effort on sourcing while doing it? Not as comfortable. Delete the article entirely instead of stubbing it? Certainly not okay in my mind. I have no problem with having some sort of thing in place for biographies, but BLP ain't it - it was done in the heat of the moment, and I think the "consensus" is more of a "Jimbo wants it" than anything resembling a true consensus, which isn't great. With that said, it ''is'' policy, and it isn't going anywhere, so... -Jeff -- Name: Jeff Raymond E-mail: jeff.raymond(a)internationalhouseofbacon.com WWW: http://www.internationalhouseofbacon.com IM: badlydrawnjeff Quote: "I was always a fan of Lisa Loeb, particularly because you kind of get the impression she sang every song either about or to her cats. They seem to be the driving force in most of her creative process." - Chuck Klosterman

On 4/15/07, Guy Chapman aka JzG <guy.chapman(a)spamcop.net> wrote: I suppose one alternative is to delete the versions with offending content (presumably that would be all of them) and recreate the article as a redirect. It doesn't prevent someone from recreating the offending content, but neither does deletion.

On Sunday 15 April 2007 13:45, Guy Chapman aka JzG wrote: How do you know it's false? Because the person said so? Would you have believed Hitler when he said he would stop if he got Czechoslovakia? People lie about themselves all the time. Given that the subject obviously has a vested interest in how he is portrayed, how is he a better source than what was provided? And since the content has been deleted, how is it possible for the rest of us to know what the source was so we can evaluate it ourselves? -- Kurt Weber <kmw(a)armory.com>

Guy Chapman aka JzG wrote: WP:OR. d:-) This is like a hate group version of the "Is Larry Sanger a co-founder or not" discussion. One group shows a bunch of evidence, the other someone's claim, and we go around in circles. -Jeff -- If you can read this, I'm not at home.

This is untrue Guy. The claim in that single sentence was that Guille is leader of the Canadian Heritage Alliance and a Lexis-Nexis search returns a number of reliable sources that say exactly that. Moreover, it also returns several references, in headlines no less, to her being a "white supremacist". I don't see how your deletion and SALTING of the article is justifiable and if you'd done a simple search you would have known not to do it. At the Deletion Review debate at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2007_April_14#Me… you seem to be more upset at being challenged than anything else and are rallying for people to support you. That's perfectly human and I don't want to chastize you for it, but it's also incompatible with being a professional. Rather than taking a sober second look, you've dug in your heels and asked your friends to support you and a number of them are but reading the Deletion Review it looks like they're supporting you blindly and not actually looking at the article or looking at sources. This isn't good for wikipedia, we should be better able to scrutinize one another's work without oversensitivity or blindness. Doing a free Lexis-Nexis a la carte search at http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com<http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/i… /partners/int/lexisnews/srchNW<http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/srchNW.asp?mtid=1&srchmode=2> .<http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/srchNW.asp?mtid=1&srchmode=2> asp?mtid=1&srchmode=2<http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/le… "Melissa Guille" for all available dates of non-US and wire sources this is what I find and, I'm sorry Guy, but it looks like there's more than enough to justify the claims that you describe as "defamation". Frankly, it looks like you've been had. WH0 ARE THEY?; FREE PRESS REPORTER RANDY RICHMOND PROFILES THE MOST PROMINENT WHITE SUPREMACISTS IN LONDON. THEIR BACKGROUNDS RANGE FROM UNIVERSITY HISTORY GRADUATE TO DIGITAL DESIGNER TO FORMER BRINKS DRIVER. *London Free Press (Ontario)* - 3/28/2005 - 406 words Melissa Guille The white supremacist movement attracts far fewer women than men. That makes Londoner Melissa Guille unusual enough. Even more surprising, she leads a white supremacist group with a high profile in Canada. That has made Guille, a single mother of one teenage boy, the white supremacist movement's... View now for $3.00 <http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219830&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=1&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type=> ------------------------------ Pride leader faces charges; Melissa Guille, one of few female white supremacy organizers, is facing human rights charges. *London Free Press (Ontario)* - 11/20/2006 - 448 words One of the few female organizers in Canada's white pride movement, and a potential national leader, is to appear today on charges she violated Canada's Human Rights Act. Melissa Guille and her Southwestern Ontario-based Canadian Heritage Alliance have been brought before a Canadian human rights tribunal in Toronto on... View now for $3.00 <http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219831&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=1&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type=> ------------------------------ RIGHTS COMMISSION TO QUIZ LONDONER; THE COMPLAINT AGAINST MELISSA GUILLE ALLEGES THAT HER WEBSITE INCITES ETHNIC HATRED. *London Free Press (Ontario)* - 12/18/2005 - 505 words Another leader of London's white supremacy movement faces a grilling at a Canadian human rights tribunal hearing. A complaint against Melissa Guille,head of the Canadian Heritage Alliance, has been investigated by the Canadian Human Rights Commission and referred to a tribunal hearing, Ottawa lawyer Richard Warman said yesterday.... View now for $3.00 <http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219832&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=1&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type=> ------------------------------ CITY COPS WARN OF RACIST UPSURGE; POLICE LINK THREE WHITE SUPREMACIST GROUPS IN LONDON WITH INCREASED DANGER OFVIOLENCE. *London Free Press (Ontario, Canada)* - 10/31/2002 - 674 words Three white supremacy groups have set up operations in London, police and activists warn, sparking fears of violence and racist activities in the city. Already one assault on a non-white male has been linked by police to members of what they believe are hate groups. But a leader of... View now for $3.00 <http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219833&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=1&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type=> ------------------------------ 'Not promoting hate'; Leader of white supremacy group says it doesn't have a racist agenda *The Record (Kitchener-Waterloo, Ontario)* - 2/27/2001 - 598 words One of the leaders of a new Kitchener-Waterloo group denied yesterday that it has a racist agenda. B'nai Brith Canada and Waterloo regional police have both identified the Canadian Heritage Alliance as a white supremacy organization with ties to established hate groups. But in an interview through the doorway... View now for $3.00 <http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219834&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=1&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type=> ------------------------------ Group leader denies racist agenda *The Cambridge Reporter* - 2/27/2001 - 429 words One of the leaders of a new Kitchener-Waterloo group denied yesterday that it has a racist agenda. B'nai Brith Canada and Waterloo regional police have both identified the Canadian Heritage Alliance as a white supremacy organization with ties to established hate groups. But in an interview through the doorway... View now for $3.00 <http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219835&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=1&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type=> ------------------------------ Kitchener: White supremacist group adopts local road; 'We should not give this space and publicity to this group,' says head of anti-racism program *The Cambridge Reporter* - 4/18/2001 - 631 words Critics claim Waterloo Region appears to have been unwittingly duped by a white supremacist group in agreeing to post its name on a sign in the region's "adopt-a-road" program. "Mistakes happen but let's clear them up," said Matthew Lauder, a Waterloo resident who is director of the anti-racism program... View now for $3.00 <http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219836&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=1&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type=> ------------------------------ Year 12 MERITS *The Advertiser* - 12/31/1999 - 5422 words The Senior Secondary Assessment Board of South Australia awards merit certificates to Year 12 students who have attained a subject achievement socre of 20 out of 20 in any subject. The following 993 names are the names of merit certificate winners for 1999, as supplied by SSABSA. A total of 996 students received merits, but... View now for $3.00 <http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219837&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=1&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type=> ------------------------------ WHY ARE THEY HERE?; LONDON POLICE AND CIVIC OFFICIALS TEND TO PLAY DOWN THE PRESENCE OF ORGANIZED HATE. BUT ANTI-HATE GROUPS SAY THERE'S A SERIOUS PROBLEM. INDISPUTABLE IS THE FACT THAT LONDON IS HOME TO AT LEAST TWO WHITE SUPREMACIST GROUPS AND THEIR LEADERS. *London Free Press (Ontario)* - 3/26/2005 - 1461 words The word hate comes easily to Londoner Tomasz Winnicki. "We do hate . . . the negroes and other mud races who flood into our clean, white civilizations and then wreck them," he e-mails in response to a request for an interview. "We hate the Jew: the media Jew, the banking Jew,... View now for $3.00 <http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219838&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=1&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type=> ------------------------------ WHO ARE THEY?; OTHERS *London Free Press (Ontario)* - 3/28/2005 - 230 words Other notable white supremacists in the London area include: TYLER CHILCOTT: Longtime member of the Northern Alliance, who complained his rights were violated when London police wrote a letter to the group requesting attendance at a meeting at the police station. He was involved in a fracas between white... LONDONER, GROUP FACE RIGHTS COMPLAINT *London Free Press (Ontario, Canada)* - 10/25/2004 - 428 words Another high-profile member of London's white supremacist network, and a city white supremacist group, are facing a complaint filed with the Canadian Human Rights Commission. Melissa Guille and the Canadian Heritage Alliance are the subject of a complaint filed by Ottawa lawyer Richard Warman. Guilleis well-known in supremacist... View now for $3.00 <http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219844&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=2&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type=> ------------------------------ Ontario group denies police allegations it has racist agenda *Guelph Mercury (Ontario, Canada)* - 2/27/2001 - 209 words One of the leaders of the Canadian Heritage Alliance denies the new group has a racist agenda. B'nai Brith Canada and Waterloo Region police have both identified the Canadian Heritage Alliance as a white supremacy organization with ties to established hate groups. "We are a nationalist group, not a... View now for $3.00 <http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219845&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=2&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type=> ------------------------------ No racist agenda, organization insists *North Bay Nugget (Ontario)* - 2/27/2001 - 235 words WATERLOO (CP) One of the leaders of the Canadian Heritage Alliance denies the new group has a racist agenda. B'nai Brith Canada and Waterloo Region police have both identified the Canadian Heritage Alliance as a white supremacy organization with ties to established hate groups. ``We are a nationalist group,... View now for $3.00 <http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219846&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=2&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type=> ------------------------------ No racist agenda, organization insists *North Bay Nugget (Ontario)* - 2/27/2001 - 235 words WATERLOO (CP) One of the leaders of the Canadian Heritage Alliance denies the new group has a racist agenda. B'nai Brith Canada and Waterloo Region police have both identified the Canadian Heritage Alliance as a white supremacy organization with ties to established hate groups. ``We are a nationalist group,... View now for $3.00 <http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219847&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=2&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type=> ------------------------------ Deaths & Funerals *Times Colonist (Victoria, British Columbia)* - 1/30/2007 - 1844 words GRANT, Harold Beverley Born in Weyburn, Saskatchewan on December 4 1919 Harold passed away on January 28, 2007. Predeceased by his wife Elva (1983) and son Jim (2002), and survived by his four children Barbara (Henry), Ron (Brenda), Judy (Ralph), Ken (Carol), sister Phyllis, eight grandchildren, five great grandchildren, seven step great grandchildren, 2 step grandchildren... View now for $3.00 <http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219848&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=2&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type=> ------------------------------ Rights groups offended by sign *The Record (Kitchener-Waterloo, Ontario)* - 4/18/2001 - 745 words A white supremacist group appears to have duped Waterloo Region into posting its name on a sign in the region's "adopt-a-road" program, critics say. "Mistakes happen, but let's clear them up," said Matthew Lauder, a Waterloo resident who is director of the anti-racism program at the Guelph and District... View now for $3.00 <http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219849&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=2&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type=> ------------------------------ WATERLOO SUPREMACIST GROUP HAS ROAD 'ADOPTION' REVOKED *The Toronto Star* - 4/19/2001 - 403 words Sign is plucked from roadside Liz Monteiro TORSTAR NEWS SERVICE KITCHENER - Waterloo Region moved quickly yesterday morning to correct an embarrassing mistake. By 11 a.m., five workers, including a road supervisor, were removing a sign for the region's "adopt-a-road" program from Dickie Settlement Rd. The sign, bearing the name of... View now for $3.00 <http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219850&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=2&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type=> ------------------------------ SCALDED DOG SENTENCE LABELLED 'SLAP ON THE WRIST' *The Daily Herald-Tribune (Grande Prairie, Alberta)* - 2/9/2004 - 233 words Animal welfare organizations were upset Friday after a judge fined a woman $200 for seriously scalding her pet dog. ''We're concerned this sends a message that animal abuse is not to be taken seriously and perhaps that animals aren't valued as much in society as they should be,'' said View now for $3.00 <http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219851&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=2&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type=> ------------------------------ Kitchener; White supremacist group's sign yanked *The Cambridge Reporter* - 4/19/2001 - 256 words The Region of Waterloo moved quickly yesterday morning to correct an embarrassing mistake. By 11 a.m., five regional workers, including a road supervisor, were removing a sign with the region's "adopt-a-road" program from Dickie Settlement Road. The sign was sponsored by the local white supremacist group, the Canadian Heritage Alliance.... View now for $3.00 <http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219852&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=2&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type=> ------------------------------ White supremacists adopt section of road *Guelph Mercury (Ontario, Canada)* - 4/18/2001 - 295 words Waterloo Region appears to have been duped by the Canadian Heritage Alliance, a white supremacist group, in agreeing to post its name on a sign in the region's adopt-a-road programme, critics say. Mistakes happen but let's clear them up, said Matthew Lauder, a Waterloo resident who is director of... View now for $3.00 <http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219853&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=2&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type=> * * <http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/results.asp?rtid=1&lnsearch_id=AD8D234BB5C2115F8266B7D16412135EB5C6062CA64AE41D7BA6DC7A85DFF83E6CDA241D5AEF9DD836746B878C5578D4FD0F8A73478F9C5E469C41578FB0F7F9AC67E8028C4F43A961F9DFD23101A5A0AB2D6C1F7DE78E4DB3F801ED5BF125DEADFBBCD1511CDE9FD070EA40CA82E57C&page=1#top> *11 - 20* of *59* <http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/results.asp?rtid=1&lnsearch_id=AD8D234BB5C2115F8266B7D16412135EB5C6062CA64AE41D7BA6DC7A85DFF83E6CDA241D5AEF9DD836746B878C5578D4FD0F8A73478F9C5E469C41578FB0F7F9AC67E8028C4F43A961F9DFD23101A5A0AB2D6C1F7DE78E4DB3F801ED5BF125DEADFBBCD1511CDE9FD070EA40CA82E57C&page=3#top> Just the facts *Calgary Herald (Alberta, Canada)* - 3/26/2004 - 180 words Re: "White supremacists scrap meeting plans," March 2. Your article contains several errors and misinformation. First, the meeting in question did take place March 1 in Edmonton. Second, false labels were attached to the two named participants because your reporter chose to speak only to the Anti-Racist Action, a member of... View now for $3.00 <http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219855&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=3&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type=> ------------------------------ Group was maligned *The Record (Kitchener-Waterloo, Ontario)* - 3/7/2001 - 228 words I am responding to the personal nature and attack of the misleading articles published on Feb. 24 and 27 regarding the Canadian Heritage Alliance. Record reporter Brian Caldwell appeared at my door declaring he would write an article regardless of my participation. Caldwell came with an agenda and an axe to... View now for $3.00 <http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219856&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=3&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type=> ------------------------------ Free speech is chained *The Record (Kitchener-Waterloo, Ontario)* - 5/1/2001 - 174 words It's interesting that the April 19 editorial, Chain Fence Won't Chain Free Speech, appeared the same day as the Canadian Heritage Alliance had its Adopt-a-Road signs removed. In Canada today, it seems violence and civil disobedience is a media darling, while genuine political thought and analysis is stifled by rumour... View now for $3.00 <http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219857&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=3&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type=> ------------------------------ LONDON NO PLACE FOR RACISM *London Free Press (Ontario, Canada)* - 11/10/2002 - 202 words In the article, City cops warn of racist upsurge (Oct. 31), Melissa Guilleof the Heritage Alliance was quoted as saying "We are not criminals. What would violence gain?" and "Because I promote European heritage, I am considered a racist?" My reply to her is, yes. No matter how you... View now for $3.00 <http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219858&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=3&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type=> ------------------------------ ------------------------------ 'Offensive' adopt-a-road sign removed by regional workers *The Record (Kitchener-Waterloo, Ontario)* - 4/19/2001 - 483 words The Region of Waterloo moved quickly yesterday morning to correct an embarrassing mistake. By 11 a.m., five regional workers, including a road supervisor, were removing a sign with the region's adopt-a-road program from Dickie Settlement Road. The sign was sponsored by the local white supremacist group, the Canadian Heritage Alliance.... Cost for these Items Items Viewed (0) $0.00 Items in Cart (0) $0.00 Total Items (0) $0.00 Proceed to Checkout<http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/cart.asp&… Learn how LexisNexis *AlaCarte!* helps small businesses and solo practitioners find the most relevant research, fast. On 4/15/07, Guy Chapman aka JzG &lt;guy.chapman(a)spamcop.net&gt; wrote:

On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 22:54:37 -0400, "Stephen Park" &lt;stephenpark15(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Actually it said "'''Melissa Guille''' (born ca. 1972) is an activist who some claim is associated with the [[Canadian Heritage Alliance]] (CHA). [http://www.canadiancontent.ca/articles/050901racism.html] " Classic weasel words. But you are right, the claim re the Heritage Front came from the previoius version. Either way, we do not need the deleted history to write something vastly better and with vastly better sources - unless, of course, no vastly better sources exist, in whihc case... Guy (JzG) -- http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG

Guy Chapman aka JzG wrote: Common decency is an entirely fluid concept from person to person, though. You adn I don't disagree with the intent in this case, but some find it harmful on a utilitarian scale. -Jeff -- Name: Jeff Raymond E-mail: jeff.raymond(a)internationalhouseofbacon.com WWW: http://www.internationalhouseofbacon.com IM: badlydrawnjeff Quote: "I was always a fan of Lisa Loeb, particularly because you kind of get the impression she sang every song either about or to her cats. They seem to be the driving force in most of her creative process." - Chuck Klosterman

On 4/15/07 11:25 AM, "Jeff Raymond" &lt;jeff.raymond(a)internationalhouseofbacon.com&gt; wrote: "Some find it harmful" - did you lift that straight out of [[Wikipedia: Avoid weasel words]]? "Some" might "find it harmful" that we require reliable sourcing for anything at all, but we ignore them because we're an encyclopedia, not a blog. As an encyclopedia that is one of the Internet's top-10 Web sites, we can no longer ignore the fact that what we write in the encyclopedia can have a real-world impact - by republicizing old, completely non-notable and discredited allegations, by bringing out and permanently recording ancient family squabbles for all to see, by having biographies which are nothing but thinly-veiled attack pages and by repeatedly being the vehicle for disgusting libels which can end up being published by us for months without being discovered. Jeff, I can't help but think that if you were a member of the OTRS team and had to deal with the same things we have to read with on a day-to-day basis, your attitude would change overnight. We, as an editing community, still do a very poor job making sure that Wikipedia isn't a libel-and-attack vector. Human decency is one of the things that requires we change that. -Travis Mason-Bushman

On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 18:36:51 +0100, "Sam Blacketer" &lt;sam.blacketer(a)googlemail.com&gt; wrote: As I have said several times, I have no caring if Guille *is* a white supremacist, as long as we can source it to extremely reliable sources, but in this case the claim was a guilt-by-association job based on her being a leader of the Heritage Front. Problem: she states unequivocally that she was never a member of HF, and no source was given to contradict that. Guy (JzG) -- http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG

On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 21:00:53 +0100, "Sam Blacketer" &lt;sam.blacketer(a)googlemail.com&gt; wrote: We don't seem to have that problem with Don Black. Maybe if the group is not covered in that much detail by credible, independent sources, it is not actually that important? Sometimes we only cast glory on these idiots by publicising their existence. Unless Nazi Watch Canada (in this case a website called CanadianContent - "news and rants from the other side") has a long and glorious record of scrupulous fairness, I'd be very wary of single-sourcing a claim to them. And actually the cited source explicitly states that she did *not* join the Heritage Front. http://www.canadiancontent.ca/articles/050901racism.html Guy (JzG) -- http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG

On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 14:19:33 +1000, "Steve Bennett" &lt;stevagewp(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: True. And given the amount of crap you get at RfA, to find that people still insist on trying to second-guess you is quite dispiriting. The only consolation is that they do the same to Jimbo. Guy (JzG) -- http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG