I deleted an article on a living individual which led with the statement that she had been a leader in a disbanded hate group. The subject mailed OTRS and stated this was false, and it was unsourced. The rest of the article was also largely unsourced, or sourced to a polemical website.
It's been taken to deletion review: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2007_April_14#.5B...
It is asserted by several people that we should undelete the article because the subject is notable and a sourced article could be written.
NO! FOR GOD'S SAKE, PEOPLE, WHAT ARE YOU THINKING!
If someone started a new article on the Dalai Lama that said he eats babies, we would delete it like a shot. We would not ''undelete'' it in order to write a new, sourced article. That would be pointless and stupid.
Where is the sense in undeleting an article whose content is of absolutely no value in creating a sourced neutral article?
I despair.
Guy (JzG)
On 4/15/07, Guy Chapman aka JzG guy.chapman@spamcop.net wrote:
Where is the sense in undeleting an article whose content is of absolutely no value in creating a sourced neutral article?
Well mostly that otherwise you risk getting your article zapped by random admins under G4.
On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 17:19:07 +0100, geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
Well mostly that otherwise you risk getting your article zapped by random admins under G4.
Does not apply to speedies, and there is clear support for having an article. But you don't need *that* article to have an article.
Guy (JzG)
On 4/15/07, Guy Chapman aka JzG guy.chapman@spamcop.net wrote:
Does not apply to speedies,
Ha.
Guy Chapman aka JzG wrote:
I despair.
I despair more that a majority of editors can uphold an abusive, improper speedy deletion simply because they don't like the content.
But I don't see you despairing for that.
-Jeff
On 4/15/07, Jeff Raymond jeff.raymond@internationalhouseofbacon.com wrote:
Guy Chapman aka JzG wrote:
I despair.
I despair more that a majority of editors can uphold an abusive, improper speedy deletion simply because they don't like the content.
I'm sure you want to outline "abusive" and "improper"...
Michael
-- Name: Jeff Raymond E-mail: jeff.raymond@internationalhouseofbacon.com WWW: http://www.internationalhouseofbacon.com IM: badlydrawnjeff Quote: "I was always a fan of Lisa Loeb, particularly because you kind of get the impression she sang every song either about or to her cats. They seem to be the driving force in most of her creative process." - Chuck Klosterman
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On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 12:34:21 -0400, Jeff Raymond jeff.raymond@internationalhouseofbacon.com wrote:
I despair more that a majority of editors can uphold an abusive, improper speedy deletion simply because they don't like the content.
Which article would that be?
Guy (JzG)
On Sun, 15 Apr 2007, Guy Chapman aka JzG wrote:
If someone started a new article on the Dalai Lama that said he eats babies, we would delete it like a shot. We would not ''undelete'' it in order to write a new, sourced article. That would be pointless and stupid.
I looked at that discussion. People disagree with you over not counting sources as sources. It would not be possible to create an article that says the Dalai Lama eats babies and is sourced; apparently, this article *is* sourced, making the comparison inapt. We also don't delete articles for BLP reasons when the person complains about sourced information.
On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 09:55:38 -0700 (PDT), Ken Arromdee arromdee@rahul.net wrote:
I looked at that discussion. People disagree with you over not counting sources as sources.
The article had two paragraphs. The first contained what the subject said was a falsehood. The second was negative and sourced to a blog. Many more sources have been produced during the AfD, it will be trivially easy to write a much better article from those. The DRV debate is several times the size of the original article. Hell, some of the individual statements on that debate are bigger than the deleted article.
It would be insane to an unsourced negative statement whose factual accuracy is disputed by the subject. That's half the article. The balance can be said better, and already is in [[Canadian Heritage Alliance]]. What is the benefit to the project of restoring a history full of attacks?
Guy (JzG)
On Sun, 15 Apr 2007, Guy Chapman aka JzG wrote:
The second was negative and sourced to a blog.
The comments in the deletion review indicate that it is not a blog. It takes (and may reject) submissions, and has editorial oversight. Further, someone provided a quote from Jimbo supporting the use of similar sources.
Ken Arromdee wrote:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2007, Guy Chapman aka JzG wrote:
The second was negative and sourced to a blog.
The comments in the deletion review indicate that it is not a blog. It takes (and may reject) submissions, and has editorial oversight. Further, someone provided a quote from Jimbo supporting the use of similar sources.
No matter, someone's already closed it early:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:DRV#Melissa_Guille__.28closed.29
Which will do wonders in terms of harmonious cooperation.
-Jeff
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 10:31:54 -0400 (EDT), "Jeff Raymond" jeff.raymond@internationalhouseofbacon.com wrote:
No matter, someone's already closed it early: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:DRV#Melissa_Guille__.28closed.29 Which will do wonders in terms of harmonious cooperation.
Yup, because it explicitly endorses rewriting from sources, which means that instead of the truly fatuous argument that we should undelete a defamatory and inaccurate biography "because she's notable" we can now get on with wiring a biography which *isn't* defamatory and inaccurate. An excellent result all round.
Guy (JzG)
This is a difficult thread to follow when I can't read the text of the deleted article. However it doesn't seem to be comparable to the Dalai Lama eating babies; it's more like Oswald Mosley coming back from the dead and complaining that his biography says he is a Nazi when he was actually a fascist. Some of Melissa Guille's friends seem to take a different view from her: try http://www.whiterevolution.com/forum/showpost.php?s=d7aa81f0a4fd482ca51bd8ff... for a messageboard posting from a far right website.
WP:BLP is potentially open to misuse by the supporters of controversial public figures who wish to 'cleanse' the public record of anything critical. There is a danger of a pile up at the intersection of WP:BLP and WP:NPOV.
Sam Blacketer wrote:
WP:BLP is potentially open to misuse by the supporters of controversial public figures who wish to 'cleanse' the public record of anything critical. There is a danger of a pile up at the intersection of WP:BLP and WP:NPOV.
That tends to happen when we rush out a policy to counter bad public relations.
Did I say that out loud?
-Jeff
Jeff, do you believe there is ANY respect in which articles making claims about living people should be treated differently from everything else?
Newyorkbrad
On 4/15/07, Jeff Raymond jeff.raymond@internationalhouseofbacon.com wrote:
Sam Blacketer wrote:
WP:BLP is potentially open to misuse by the supporters of controversial public figures who wish to 'cleanse' the public record of anything critical. There is a danger of a pile up at the intersection of WP:BLP and WP:NPOV.
That tends to happen when we rush out a policy to counter bad public relations.
Did I say that out loud?
-Jeff
-- Name: Jeff Raymond E-mail: jeff.raymond@internationalhouseofbacon.com WWW: http://www.internationalhouseofbacon.com IM: badlydrawnjeff Quote: "I was always a fan of Lisa Loeb, particularly because you kind of get the impression she sang every song either about or to her cats. They seem to be the driving force in most of her creative process." - Chuck Klosterman
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Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia) wrote:
Jeff, do you believe there is ANY respect in which articles making claims about living people should be treated differently from everything else?
I think we're leaning too far toward the "shoot first" mentality, honestly, and when it results in a complete deletion, that's a problem. Remove possibly libellious commentary? Okay. Make no effort on sourcing while doing it? Not as comfortable. Delete the article entirely instead of stubbing it? Certainly not okay in my mind.
I have no problem with having some sort of thing in place for biographies, but BLP ain't it - it was done in the heat of the moment, and I think the "consensus" is more of a "Jimbo wants it" than anything resembling a true consensus, which isn't great.
With that said, it ''is'' policy, and it isn't going anywhere, so...
-Jeff
On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 14:06:45 -0400, Jeff Raymond jeff.raymond@internationalhouseofbacon.com wrote:
I think we're leaning too far toward the "shoot first" mentality, honestly, and when it results in a complete deletion, that's a problem. Remove possibly libellious commentary? Okay. Make no effort on sourcing while doing it? Not as comfortable. Delete the article entirely instead of stubbing it? Certainly not okay in my mind.
In this case the stub was a single sentence which included a false claim. So that didn't work. And that was done by a very good editor, too, so it's not his fault, the problem is that the source for the claim, which is not a good one, is flatly contradicted by the subject. In a conflict between a poor source and a flat denial by the subject, the subject wins.
Guy (JzG)
On 4/15/07, Guy Chapman aka JzG guy.chapman@spamcop.net wrote:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 14:06:45 -0400, Jeff Raymond jeff.raymond@internationalhouseofbacon.com wrote:
I think we're leaning too far toward the "shoot first" mentality, honestly, and when it results in a complete deletion, that's a problem. Remove possibly libellious commentary? Okay. Make no effort on sourcing while doing it? Not as comfortable. Delete the article entirely instead of stubbing it? Certainly not okay in my mind.
In this case the stub was a single sentence which included a false claim. So that didn't work. And that was done by a very good editor, too, so it's not his fault, the problem is that the source for the claim, which is not a good one, is flatly contradicted by the subject. In a conflict between a poor source and a flat denial by the subject, the subject wins.
I suppose one alternative is to delete the versions with offending content (presumably that would be all of them) and recreate the article as a redirect. It doesn't prevent someone from recreating the offending content, but neither does deletion.
On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 13:49:14 -0500, Guettarda guettarda@gmail.com wrote:
I suppose one alternative is to delete the versions with offending content (presumably that would be all of them) and recreate the article as a redirect. It doesn't prevent someone from recreating the offending content, but neither does deletion.
I'm happy for anyone to re-create the article, but undeletion seems to me to be extremely foolhardy. The history is thoroughly infected by edits motivated by (probably well-founded) hatred and contempt for the subject.
Guy (JzG)
On Sunday 15 April 2007 13:45, Guy Chapman aka JzG wrote:
In this case the stub was a single sentence which included a false claim.
How do you know it's false? Because the person said so? Would you have believed Hitler when he said he would stop if he got Czechoslovakia?
People lie about themselves all the time.
the problem is that the source for the claim, which is not a good one, is flatly contradicted by the subject. In a conflict between a poor source and a flat denial by the subject, the subject wins.
Given that the subject obviously has a vested interest in how he is portrayed, how is he a better source than what was provided? And since the content has been deleted, how is it possible for the rest of us to know what the source was so we can evaluate it ourselves?
On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 14:26:28 -0500, Kurt Maxwell Weber kmw@armory.com wrote:
In this case the stub was a single sentence which included a false claim.
How do you know it's false? Because the person said so? Would you have believed Hitler when he said he would stop if he got Czechoslovakia?
Because the subject denies it and because when you actually get hold of a copy of the original source the original source also explicitly states that she did not join the Heritage Front. Which rather makes the argument over reliability of the source moot :-)
Guy (JzG)
Guy Chapman aka JzG wrote:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 14:26:28 -0500, Kurt Maxwell Weber kmw@armory.com wrote:
In this case the stub was a single sentence which included a false claim.
How do you know it's false? Because the person said so? Would you have believed Hitler when he said he would stop if he got Czechoslovakia?
Because the subject denies it and because when you actually get hold of a copy of the original source the original source also explicitly states that she did not join the Heritage Front. Which rather makes the argument over reliability of the source moot :-)
WP:OR.
d:-)
This is like a hate group version of the "Is Larry Sanger a co-founder or not" discussion. One group shows a bunch of evidence, the other someone's claim, and we go around in circles.
-Jeff
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 11:58:18 -0400 (EDT), "Jeff Raymond" jeff.raymond@internationalhouseofbacon.com wrote:
This is like a hate group version of the "Is Larry Sanger a co-founder or not" discussion. One group shows a bunch of evidence, the other someone's claim, and we go around in circles.
Except that in this case the Sanger claim would be sourced to a web page that says Sanger was invited to co-found Wikipedia but decided to start Citizendium instead. Almost literally: it says she set up CHA instead of joining HF, and her membership of HF was the basis on which the original article called her a white supremacist, and that was the basis on which the CHA was claimed to be white supremacist.
No matter. CHA has been entirely rewritten into something vastly better, and Guille is currently a redirect, can be something else if the sources can be found. Peace and sanity return to Wikipedia. Until next time.
Guy (JzG)
In this case the stub was a single sentence which included a false claim. So that didn't work.
This is untrue Guy. The claim in that single sentence was that Guille is leader of the Canadian Heritage Alliance and a Lexis-Nexis search returns a number of reliable sources that say exactly that. Moreover, it also returns several references, in headlines no less, to her being a "white supremacist". I don't see how your deletion and SALTING of the article is justifiable and if you'd done a simple search you would have known not to do it.
At the Deletion Review debate at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2007_April_14#Mel... you seem to be more upset at being challenged than anything else and are rallying for people to support you. That's perfectly human and I don't want to chastize you for it, but it's also incompatible with being a professional. Rather than taking a sober second look, you've dug in your heels and asked your friends to support you and a number of them are but reading the Deletion Review it looks like they're supporting you blindly and not actually looking at the article or looking at sources. This isn't good for wikipedia, we should be better able to scrutinize one another's work without oversensitivity or blindness.
Doing a free Lexis-Nexis a la carte search at http://alacarte.lexisnexis.comhttp://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/srchNW.asp?mtid=1&srchmode=2 /partners/int/lexisnews/srchNWhttp://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/srchNW.asp?mtid=1&srchmode=2 .http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/srchNW.asp?mtid=1&srchmode=2 asp?mtid=1&srchmode=2http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/srchNW.asp?mtid=1&srchmode=2for "Melissa Guille" for all available dates of non-US and wire sources this is what I find and, I'm sorry Guy, but it looks like there's more than enough to justify the claims that you describe as "defamation". Frankly, it looks like you've been had.
WH0 ARE THEY?; FREE PRESS REPORTER RANDY RICHMOND PROFILES THE MOST PROMINENT WHITE SUPREMACISTS IN LONDON. THEIR BACKGROUNDS RANGE FROM UNIVERSITY HISTORY GRADUATE TO DIGITAL DESIGNER TO FORMER BRINKS DRIVER. *London Free Press (Ontario)* - 3/28/2005 - 406 words Melissa Guille The white supremacist movement attracts far fewer women than men. That makes Londoner Melissa Guille unusual enough. Even more surprising, she leads a white supremacist group with a high profile in Canada. That has made Guille, a single mother of one teenage boy, the white supremacist movement's... View now for $3.00 http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219830&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=1&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type= ------------------------------ Pride leader faces charges; Melissa Guille, one of few female white supremacy organizers, is facing human rights charges. *London Free Press (Ontario)* - 11/20/2006 - 448 words One of the few female organizers in Canada's white pride movement, and a potential national leader, is to appear today on charges she violated Canada's Human Rights Act. Melissa Guille and her Southwestern Ontario-based Canadian Heritage Alliance have been brought before a Canadian human rights tribunal in Toronto on... View now for $3.00 http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219831&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=1&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type= ------------------------------ RIGHTS COMMISSION TO QUIZ LONDONER; THE COMPLAINT AGAINST MELISSA GUILLE ALLEGES THAT HER WEBSITE INCITES ETHNIC HATRED. *London Free Press (Ontario)* - 12/18/2005 - 505 words Another leader of London's white supremacy movement faces a grilling at a Canadian human rights tribunal hearing. A complaint against Melissa Guille,head of the Canadian Heritage Alliance, has been investigated by the Canadian Human Rights Commission and referred to a tribunal hearing, Ottawa lawyer Richard Warman said yesterday.... View now for $3.00 http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219832&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=1&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type= ------------------------------ CITY COPS WARN OF RACIST UPSURGE; POLICE LINK THREE WHITE SUPREMACIST GROUPS IN LONDON WITH INCREASED DANGER OFVIOLENCE. *London Free Press (Ontario, Canada)* - 10/31/2002 - 674 words Three white supremacy groups have set up operations in London, police and activists warn, sparking fears of violence and racist activities in the city. Already one assault on a non-white male has been linked by police to members of what they believe are hate groups. But a leader of... View now for $3.00 http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219833&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=1&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type= ------------------------------ 'Not promoting hate'; Leader of white supremacy group says it doesn't have a racist agenda *The Record (Kitchener-Waterloo, Ontario)* - 2/27/2001 - 598 words One of the leaders of a new Kitchener-Waterloo group denied yesterday that it has a racist agenda. B'nai Brith Canada and Waterloo regional police have both identified the Canadian Heritage Alliance as a white supremacy organization with ties to established hate groups. But in an interview through the doorway... View now for $3.00 http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219834&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=1&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type= ------------------------------ Group leader denies racist agenda *The Cambridge Reporter* - 2/27/2001 - 429 words One of the leaders of a new Kitchener-Waterloo group denied yesterday that it has a racist agenda. B'nai Brith Canada and Waterloo regional police have both identified the Canadian Heritage Alliance as a white supremacy organization with ties to established hate groups. But in an interview through the doorway... View now for $3.00 http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219835&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=1&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type= ------------------------------ Kitchener: White supremacist group adopts local road; 'We should not give this space and publicity to this group,' says head of anti-racism program *The Cambridge Reporter* - 4/18/2001 - 631 words Critics claim Waterloo Region appears to have been unwittingly duped by a white supremacist group in agreeing to post its name on a sign in the region's "adopt-a-road" program. "Mistakes happen but let's clear them up," said Matthew Lauder, a Waterloo resident who is director of the anti-racism program... View now for $3.00 http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219836&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=1&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type= ------------------------------ Year 12 MERITS *The Advertiser* - 12/31/1999 - 5422 words The Senior Secondary Assessment Board of South Australia awards merit certificates to Year 12 students who have attained a subject achievement socre of 20 out of 20 in any subject. The following 993 names are the names of merit certificate winners for 1999, as supplied by SSABSA. A total of 996 students received merits, but... View now for $3.00 http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219837&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=1&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type= ------------------------------ WHY ARE THEY HERE?; LONDON POLICE AND CIVIC OFFICIALS TEND TO PLAY DOWN THE PRESENCE OF ORGANIZED HATE. BUT ANTI-HATE GROUPS SAY THERE'S A SERIOUS PROBLEM. INDISPUTABLE IS THE FACT THAT LONDON IS HOME TO AT LEAST TWO WHITE SUPREMACIST GROUPS AND THEIR LEADERS. *London Free Press (Ontario)* - 3/26/2005 - 1461 words The word hate comes easily to Londoner Tomasz Winnicki. "We do hate . . . the negroes and other mud races who flood into our clean, white civilizations and then wreck them," he e-mails in response to a request for an interview. "We hate the Jew: the media Jew, the banking Jew,... View now for $3.00 http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219838&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=1&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type= ------------------------------ WHO ARE THEY?; OTHERS *London Free Press (Ontario)* - 3/28/2005 - 230 words Other notable white supremacists in the London area include: TYLER CHILCOTT: Longtime member of the Northern Alliance, who complained his rights were violated when London police wrote a letter to the group requesting attendance at a meeting at the police station. He was involved in a fracas between white... LONDONER, GROUP FACE RIGHTS COMPLAINT *London Free Press (Ontario, Canada)* - 10/25/2004 - 428 words Another high-profile member of London's white supremacist network, and a city white supremacist group, are facing a complaint filed with the Canadian Human Rights Commission. Melissa Guille and the Canadian Heritage Alliance are the subject of a complaint filed by Ottawa lawyer Richard Warman. Guilleis well-known in supremacist... View now for $3.00 http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219844&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=2&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type= ------------------------------ Ontario group denies police allegations it has racist agenda *Guelph Mercury (Ontario, Canada)* - 2/27/2001 - 209 words One of the leaders of the Canadian Heritage Alliance denies the new group has a racist agenda. B'nai Brith Canada and Waterloo Region police have both identified the Canadian Heritage Alliance as a white supremacy organization with ties to established hate groups. "We are a nationalist group, not a... View now for $3.00 http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219845&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=2&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type= ------------------------------ No racist agenda, organization insists *North Bay Nugget (Ontario)* - 2/27/2001 - 235 words WATERLOO (CP) One of the leaders of the Canadian Heritage Alliance denies the new group has a racist agenda. B'nai Brith Canada and Waterloo Region police have both identified the Canadian Heritage Alliance as a white supremacy organization with ties to established hate groups. ``We are a nationalist group,... View now for $3.00 http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219846&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=2&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type= ------------------------------ No racist agenda, organization insists *North Bay Nugget (Ontario)* - 2/27/2001 - 235 words WATERLOO (CP) One of the leaders of the Canadian Heritage Alliance denies the new group has a racist agenda. B'nai Brith Canada and Waterloo Region police have both identified the Canadian Heritage Alliance as a white supremacy organization with ties to established hate groups. ``We are a nationalist group,... View now for $3.00 http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219847&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=2&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type= ------------------------------ Deaths & Funerals *Times Colonist (Victoria, British Columbia)* - 1/30/2007 - 1844 words GRANT, Harold Beverley Born in Weyburn, Saskatchewan on December 4 1919 Harold passed away on January 28, 2007. Predeceased by his wife Elva (1983) and son Jim (2002), and survived by his four children Barbara (Henry), Ron (Brenda), Judy (Ralph), Ken (Carol), sister Phyllis, eight grandchildren, five great grandchildren, seven step great grandchildren, 2 step grandchildren... View now for $3.00 http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219848&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=2&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type= ------------------------------ Rights groups offended by sign *The Record (Kitchener-Waterloo, Ontario)* - 4/18/2001 - 745 words A white supremacist group appears to have duped Waterloo Region into posting its name on a sign in the region's "adopt-a-road" program, critics say. "Mistakes happen, but let's clear them up," said Matthew Lauder, a Waterloo resident who is director of the anti-racism program at the Guelph and District... View now for $3.00 http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219849&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=2&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type= ------------------------------ WATERLOO SUPREMACIST GROUP HAS ROAD 'ADOPTION' REVOKED *The Toronto Star* - 4/19/2001 - 403 words Sign is plucked from roadside Liz Monteiro TORSTAR NEWS SERVICE KITCHENER - Waterloo Region moved quickly yesterday morning to correct an embarrassing mistake. By 11 a.m., five workers, including a road supervisor, were removing a sign for the region's "adopt-a-road" program from Dickie Settlement Rd. The sign, bearing the name of... View now for $3.00 http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219850&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=2&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type= ------------------------------ SCALDED DOG SENTENCE LABELLED 'SLAP ON THE WRIST' *The Daily Herald-Tribune (Grande Prairie, Alberta)* - 2/9/2004 - 233 words Animal welfare organizations were upset Friday after a judge fined a woman $200 for seriously scalding her pet dog. ''We're concerned this sends a message that animal abuse is not to be taken seriously and perhaps that animals aren't valued as much in society as they should be,'' said View now for $3.00 http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219851&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=2&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type= ------------------------------ Kitchener; White supremacist group's sign yanked *The Cambridge Reporter* - 4/19/2001 - 256 words The Region of Waterloo moved quickly yesterday morning to correct an embarrassing mistake. By 11 a.m., five regional workers, including a road supervisor, were removing a sign with the region's "adopt-a-road" program from Dickie Settlement Road. The sign was sponsored by the local white supremacist group, the Canadian Heritage Alliance.... View now for $3.00 http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219852&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=2&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type= ------------------------------ White supremacists adopt section of road *Guelph Mercury (Ontario, Canada)* - 4/18/2001 - 295 words Waterloo Region appears to have been duped by the Canadian Heritage Alliance, a white supremacist group, in agreeing to post its name on a sign in the region's adopt-a-road programme, critics say. Mistakes happen but let's clear them up, said Matthew Lauder, a Waterloo resident who is director of... View now for $3.00 http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219853&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=2&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type=
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http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/results.asp?rtid=1&lnsearch_id=AD8D234BB5C2115F8266B7D16412135EB5C6062CA64AE41D7BA6DC7A85DFF83E6CDA241D5AEF9DD836746B878C5578D4FD0F8A73478F9C5E469C41578FB0F7F9AC67E8028C4F43A961F9DFD23101A5A0AB2D6C1F7DE78E4DB3F801ED5BF125DEADFBBCD1511CDE9FD070EA40CA82E57C&page=1#top *11 - 20* of *59* http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/results.asp?rtid=1&lnsearch_id=AD8D234BB5C2115F8266B7D16412135EB5C6062CA64AE41D7BA6DC7A85DFF83E6CDA241D5AEF9DD836746B878C5578D4FD0F8A73478F9C5E469C41578FB0F7F9AC67E8028C4F43A961F9DFD23101A5A0AB2D6C1F7DE78E4DB3F801ED5BF125DEADFBBCD1511CDE9FD070EA40CA82E57C&page=3#top Just the facts *Calgary Herald (Alberta, Canada)* - 3/26/2004 - 180 words Re: "White supremacists scrap meeting plans," March 2. Your article contains several errors and misinformation. First, the meeting in question did take place March 1 in Edmonton. Second, false labels were attached to the two named participants because your reporter chose to speak only to the Anti-Racist Action, a member of... View now for $3.00 http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219855&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=3&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type= ------------------------------ Group was maligned *The Record (Kitchener-Waterloo, Ontario)* - 3/7/2001 - 228 words I am responding to the personal nature and attack of the misleading articles published on Feb. 24 and 27 regarding the Canadian Heritage Alliance. Record reporter Brian Caldwell appeared at my door declaring he would write an article regardless of my participation. Caldwell came with an agenda and an axe to... View now for $3.00 http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219856&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=3&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type= ------------------------------ Free speech is chained *The Record (Kitchener-Waterloo, Ontario)* - 5/1/2001 - 174 words It's interesting that the April 19 editorial, Chain Fence Won't Chain Free Speech, appeared the same day as the Canadian Heritage Alliance had its Adopt-a-Road signs removed. In Canada today, it seems violence and civil disobedience is a media darling, while genuine political thought and analysis is stifled by rumour... View now for $3.00 http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219857&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=3&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type= ------------------------------ LONDON NO PLACE FOR RACISM *London Free Press (Ontario, Canada)* - 11/10/2002 - 202 words In the article, City cops warn of racist upsurge (Oct. 31), Melissa Guilleof the Heritage Alliance was quoted as saying "We are not criminals. What would violence gain?" and "Because I promote European heritage, I am considered a racist?" My reply to her is, yes. No matter how you... View now for $3.00 http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/order.asp?docid=15219858&search_id=41604396-1696-4575-8532-96E591033422&page=3&returnpage=results.asp&returnmtid=1&search_type= ------------------------------
------------------------------ 'Offensive' adopt-a-road sign removed by regional workers *The Record (Kitchener-Waterloo, Ontario)* - 4/19/2001 - 483 words The Region of Waterloo moved quickly yesterday morning to correct an embarrassing mistake. By 11 a.m., five regional workers, including a road supervisor, were removing a sign with the region's adopt-a-road program from Dickie Settlement Road. The sign was sponsored by the local white supremacist group, the Canadian Heritage Alliance.... Cost for these Items Items Viewed (0) $0.00 Items in Cart (0) $0.00 Total Items (0) $0.00 Proceed to Checkouthttp://alacarte.lexisnexis.com/partners/int/lexisnews/cart.asp
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On 4/15/07, Guy Chapman aka JzG guy.chapman@spamcop.net wrote:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 14:06:45 -0400, Jeff Raymond jeff.raymond@internationalhouseofbacon.com wrote:
I think we're leaning too far toward the "shoot first" mentality, honestly, and when it results in a complete deletion, that's a problem. Remove possibly libellious commentary? Okay. Make no effort on sourcing while doing it? Not as comfortable. Delete the article entirely instead of stubbing it? Certainly not okay in my mind.
In this case the stub was a single sentence which included a false claim. So that didn't work. And that was done by a very good editor, too, so it's not his fault, the problem is that the source for the claim, which is not a good one, is flatly contradicted by the subject. In a conflict between a poor source and a flat denial by the subject, the subject wins.
Guy (JzG)
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG
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Guy JzG wrote:
In this case the stub was a single sentence which included a false claim. So that didn't work.
This is untrue Guy. The claim in that single sentence was that Guille is leader of the Canadian Heritage Alliance and a Lexis-Nexis search returns a number of reliable sources that say exactly that. Moreover, it also returns several references, in headlines no less, to her being a "white supremacist". I don't see how your deletion and SALTING of the article is justifiable and if you'd done a simple search you would have known not to do it.
At the Deletion Review debate at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2007_April_14#Mel... you seem to be more upset at being challenged than anything else and are rallying for people to support you. That's perfectly human and I don't want to chastize you for it, but it's also incompatible with being a professional. Rather than taking a sober second look, you've dug in your heels and asked your friends to support you and a number of them are but reading the Deletion Review it looks like they're supporting you blindly and not actually looking at the article or looking at sources. This isn't good for wikipedia, we should be better able to scrutinize one another's work without oversensitivity or blindness.
Doing a free Lexis-Nexis a la carte search at http://alacarte.lexisnexis.com /partners/int/lexisnews/srchNW. asp?mtid=1&srchmode=2 for "Melissa Guille" for all available dates of non-US and wire sources this is what I find and, I'm sorry Guy, but it looks like there's more than enough to justify the claims that you describe as "defamation". Frankly, it looks like you've been had.
WH0 ARE THEY?; FREE PRESS REPORTER RANDY RICHMOND PROFILES THE MOST PROMINENT WHITE SUPREMACISTS IN LONDON. THEIR BACKGROUNDS RANGE FROM UNIVERSITY HISTORY GRADUATE TO DIGITAL DESIGNER TO FORMER BRINKS DRIVER. London Free Press (Ontario) - 3/28/2005 - 406 words Melissa Guille The white supremacist movement attracts far fewer women than men. That makes Londoner Melissa Guille unusual enough. Even more surprising, she leads a white supremacist group with a high profile in Canada. That has made Guille, a single mother of one teenage boy, the white supremacist movement's...
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Pride leader faces charges; Melissa Guille, one of few female white supremacy organizers, is facing human rights charges. London Free Press (Ontario) - 11/20/2006 - 448 words One of the few female organizers in Canada's white pride movement, and a potential national leader, is to appear today on charges she violated Canada's Human Rights Act. Melissa Guille and her Southwestern Ontario-based Canadian Heritage Alliance have been brought before a Canadian human rights tribunal in Toronto on...
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RIGHTS COMMISSION TO QUIZ LONDONER; THE COMPLAINT AGAINST MELISSA GUILLE ALLEGES THAT HER WEBSITE INCITES ETHNIC HATRED. London Free Press (Ontario) - 12/18/2005 - 505 words Another leader of London's white supremacy movement faces a grilling at a Canadian human rights tribunal hearing. A complaint against Melissa Guille, head of the Canadian Heritage Alliance, has been investigated by the Canadian Human Rights Commission and referred to a tribunal hearing, Ottawa lawyer Richard Warman said yesterday....
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CITY COPS WARN OF RACIST UPSURGE; POLICE LINK THREE WHITE SUPREMACIST GROUPS IN LONDON WITH INCREASED DANGER OFVIOLENCE. London Free Press (Ontario, Canada) - 10/31/2002 - 674 words Three white supremacy groups have set up operations in London, police and activists warn, sparking fears of violence and racist activities in the city. Already one assault on a non-white male has been linked by police to members of what they believe are hate groups. But a leader of...
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'Not promoting hate'; Leader of white supremacy group says it doesn't have a racist agenda The Record (Kitchener-Waterloo, Ontario) - 2/27/2001 - 598 words One of the leaders of a new Kitchener-Waterloo group denied yesterday that it has a racist agenda. B'nai Brith Canada and Waterloo regional police have both identified the Canadian Heritage Alliance as a white supremacy organization with ties to established hate groups. But in an interview through the doorway...
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Group leader denies racist agenda The Cambridge Reporter - 2/27/2001 - 429 words One of the leaders of a new Kitchener-Waterloo group denied yesterday that it has a racist agenda. B'nai Brith Canada and Waterloo regional police have both identified the Canadian Heritage Alliance as a white supremacy organization with ties to established hate groups. But in an interview through the doorway...
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Kitchener: White supremacist group adopts local road; 'We should not give this space and publicity to this group,' says head of anti-racism program The Cambridge Reporter - 4/18/2001 - 631 words Critics claim Waterloo Region appears to have been unwittingly duped by a white supremacist group in agreeing to post its name on a sign in the region's "adopt-a-road" program. "Mistakes happen but let's clear them up," said Matthew Lauder, a Waterloo resident who is director of the anti-racism program...
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Year 12 MERITS The Advertiser - 12/31/1999 - 5422 words The Senior Secondary Assessment Board of South Australia awards merit certificates to Year 12 students who have attained a subject achievement socre of 20 out of 20 in any subject. The following 993 names are the names of merit certificate winners for 1999, as supplied by SSABSA. A total of 996 students received merits, but...
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WHY ARE THEY HERE?; LONDON POLICE AND CIVIC OFFICIALS TEND TO PLAY DOWN THE PRESENCE OF ORGANIZED HATE. BUT ANTI-HATE GROUPS SAY THERE'S A SERIOUS PROBLEM. INDISPUTABLE IS THE FACT THAT LONDON IS HOME TO AT LEAST TWO WHITE SUPREMACIST GROUPS AND THEIR LEADERS. London Free Press (Ontario) - 3/26/2005 - 1461 words The word hate comes easily to Londoner Tomasz Winnicki. "We do hate . . . the negroes and other mud races who flood into our clean, white civilizations and then wreck them," he e-mails in response to a request for an interview. "We hate the Jew: the media Jew, the banking Jew,...
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WHO ARE THEY?; OTHERS London Free Press (Ontario) - 3/28/2005 - 230 words Other notable white supremacists in the London area include: TYLER CHILCOTT: Longtime member of the Northern Alliance, who complained his rights were violated when London police wrote a letter to the group requesting attendance at a meeting at the police station. He was involved in a fracas between white...
LONDONER, GROUP FACE RIGHTS COMPLAINT London Free Press (Ontario, Canada) - 10/25/2004 - 428 words Another high-profile member of London's white supremacist network, and a city white supremacist group, are facing a complaint filed with the Canadian Human Rights Commission. Melissa Guille and the Canadian Heritage Alliance are the subject of a complaint filed by Ottawa lawyer Richard Warman. Guille is well-known in supremacist...
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Ontario group denies police allegations it has racist agenda Guelph Mercury (Ontario, Canada) - 2/27/2001 - 209 words One of the leaders of the Canadian Heritage Alliance denies the new group has a racist agenda. B'nai Brith Canada and Waterloo Region police have both identified the Canadian Heritage Alliance as a white supremacy organization with ties to established hate groups. "We are a nationalist group, not a...
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No racist agenda, organization insists North Bay Nugget (Ontario) - 2/27/2001 - 235 words WATERLOO (CP) One of the leaders of the Canadian Heritage Alliance denies the new group has a racist agenda. B'nai Brith Canada and Waterloo Region police have both identified the Canadian Heritage Alliance as a white supremacy organization with ties to established hate groups. ``We are a nationalist group,...
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No racist agenda, organization insists North Bay Nugget (Ontario) - 2/27/2001 - 235 words WATERLOO (CP) One of the leaders of the Canadian Heritage Alliance denies the new group has a racist agenda. B'nai Brith Canada and Waterloo Region police have both identified the Canadian Heritage Alliance as a white supremacy organization with ties to established hate groups. ``We are a nationalist group,...
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Deaths & Funerals Times Colonist (Victoria, British Columbia) - 1/30/2007 - 1844 words GRANT, Harold Beverley Born in Weyburn, Saskatchewan on December 4 1919 Harold passed away on January 28, 2007. Predeceased by his wife Elva (1983) and son Jim (2002), and survived by his four children Barbara (Henry), Ron (Brenda), Judy (Ralph), Ken (Carol), sister Phyllis, eight grandchildren, five great grandchildren, seven step great grandchildren, 2 step grandchildren...
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Rights groups offended by sign The Record (Kitchener-Waterloo, Ontario) - 4/18/2001 - 745 words A white supremacist group appears to have duped Waterloo Region into posting its name on a sign in the region's "adopt-a-road" program, critics say. "Mistakes happen, but let's clear them up," said Matthew Lauder, a Waterloo resident who is director of the anti-racism program at the Guelph and District...
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WATERLOO SUPREMACIST GROUP HAS ROAD 'ADOPTION' REVOKED The Toronto Star - 4/19/2001 - 403 words Sign is plucked from roadside Liz Monteiro TORSTAR NEWS SERVICE KITCHENER - Waterloo Region moved quickly yesterday morning to correct an embarrassing mistake. By 11 a.m., five workers, including a road supervisor, were removing a sign for the region's "adopt-a-road" program from Dickie Settlement Rd. The sign, bearing the name of...
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SCALDED DOG SENTENCE LABELLED 'SLAP ON THE WRIST' The Daily Herald-Tribune (Grande Prairie, Alberta) - 2/9/2004 - 233 words Animal welfare organizations were upset Friday after a judge fined a woman $200 for seriously scalding her pet dog. ''We're concerned this sends a message that animal abuse is not to be taken seriously and perhaps that animals aren't valued as much in society as they should be,'' said
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Kitchener; White supremacist group's sign yanked The Cambridge Reporter - 4/19/2001 - 256 words The Region of Waterloo moved quickly yesterday morning to correct an embarrassing mistake. By 11 a.m., five regional workers, including a road supervisor, were removing a sign with the region's "adopt-a-road" program from Dickie Settlement Road. The sign was sponsored by the local white supremacist group, the Canadian Heritage Alliance....
View now for $3.00 ________________________________
White supremacists adopt section of road Guelph Mercury (Ontario, Canada) - 4/18/2001 - 295 words Waterloo Region appears to have been duped by the Canadian Heritage Alliance, a white supremacist group, in agreeing to post its name on a sign in the region's adopt-a-road programme, critics say. Mistakes happen but let's clear them up, said Matthew Lauder, a Waterloo resident who is director of...
View now for $3.00
11 - 20 of 59
Just the facts Calgary Herald (Alberta, Canada) - 3/26/2004 - 180 words Re: "White supremacists scrap meeting plans," March 2. Your article contains several errors and misinformation. First, the meeting in question did take place March 1 in Edmonton. Second, false labels were attached to the two named participants because your reporter chose to speak only to the Anti-Racist Action, a member of...
View now for $3.00 ________________________________
Group was maligned The Record (Kitchener-Waterloo, Ontario) - 3/7/2001 - 228 words I am responding to the personal nature and attack of the misleading articles published on Feb. 24 and 27 regarding the Canadian Heritage Alliance. Record reporter Brian Caldwell appeared at my door declaring he would write an article regardless of my participation. Caldwell came with an agenda and an axe to...
View now for $3.00 ________________________________
Free speech is chained The Record (Kitchener-Waterloo, Ontario) - 5/1/2001 - 174 words It's interesting that the April 19 editorial, Chain Fence Won't Chain Free Speech, appeared the same day as the Canadian Heritage Alliance had its Adopt-a-Road signs removed. In Canada today, it seems violence and civil disobedience is a media darling, while genuine political thought and analysis is stifled by rumour...
View now for $3.00 ________________________________
LONDON NO PLACE FOR RACISM London Free Press (Ontario, Canada) - 11/10/2002 - 202 words In the article, City cops warn of racist upsurge (Oct. 31), Melissa Guille of the Heritage Alliance was quoted as saying "We are not criminals. What would violence gain?" and "Because I promote European heritage, I am considered a racist?" My reply to her is, yes. No matter how you...
View now for $3.00
________________________________
'Offensive' adopt-a-road sign removed by regional workers The Record (Kitchener-Waterloo, Ontario) - 4/19/2001 - 483 words The Region of Waterloo moved quickly yesterday morning to correct an embarrassing mistake. By 11 a.m., five regional workers, including a road supervisor, were removing a sign with the region's adopt-a-road program from Dickie Settlement Road. The sign was sponsored by the local white supremacist group, the Canadian Heritage Alliance....
On 4/15/07, Guy Chapman aka JzG < guy.chapman@spamcop.net> wrote:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 14:06:45 -0400, Jeff Raymond <jeff.raymond@internationalhouseofbacon.com > wrote:
I think we're leaning too far toward the "shoot first" mentality, honestly, and when it results in a complete deletion, that's a problem. Remove possibly libellious commentary? Okay. Make no effort on sourcing while doing it? Not as comfortable. Delete the article entirely instead of stubbing it? Certainly not okay in my mind.
In this case the stub was a single sentence which included a false claim. So that didn't work. And that was done by a very good editor, too, so it's not his fault, the problem is that the source for the claim, which is not a good one, is flatly contradicted by the subject. In a conflict between a poor source and a flat denial by the subject, the subject wins.
Guy (JzG)
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 22:54:37 -0400, "Stephen Park" stephenpark15@gmail.com wrote:
This is untrue Guy. The claim in that single sentence was that Guille is leader of the Canadian Heritage Alliance
Actually it said "'''Melissa Guille''' (born ca. 1972) is an activist who some claim is associated with the [[Canadian Heritage Alliance]] (CHA). [http://www.canadiancontent.ca/articles/050901racism.html] " Classic weasel words. But you are right, the claim re the Heritage Front came from the previoius version. Either way, we do not need the deleted history to write something vastly better and with vastly better sources - unless, of course, no vastly better sources exist, in whihc case...
Guy (JzG)
On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 13:46:29 -0400, Jeff Raymond jeff.raymond@internationalhouseofbacon.com wrote:
WP:BLP is potentially open to misuse by the supporters of controversial public figures who wish to 'cleanse' the public record of anything critical. There is a danger of a pile up at the intersection of WP:BLP and WP:NPOV.
That tends to happen when we rush out a policy to counter bad public relations.
That was not one of your better arguments. WP:BLP says: poorly sourced negative material about living individuals must be removed expeditiously. It is hard to believe we even had to write a policy to say this: of COURSE poorly sourced negative material should be aggressively removed! Forget the law of defamation, what about ordinary common decency? Can *anybody* seriously dispute that intent?
Guy (JzG)
Guy Chapman aka JzG wrote:
Forget the law of defamation, what about ordinary common decency? Can *anybody* seriously dispute that intent?
Common decency is an entirely fluid concept from person to person, though. You adn I don't disagree with the intent in this case, but some find it harmful on a utilitarian scale.
-Jeff
On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 14:25:38 -0400, Jeff Raymond jeff.raymond@internationalhouseofbacon.com wrote:
Common decency is an entirely fluid concept from person to person, though. You adn I don't disagree with the intent in this case, but some find it harmful on a utilitarian scale.
And i find it hard to see what conceivable utility can be served by leaving poorly sourced negative material lying around. I can, however, see where it would be very bad to do so, especially from the perspective of the subject.
Wikipedia is one of the biggest websites on the planet. How would you feel if an article on you in the world's most prominent reference website contained material which was derogatory, poorly sourced and false?
OK, the poorly sourced negative material is not always false; where it is not it can be brought back when we have a *good* source for it. In the mean time? Who needs it.
Guy (JzG)
On 4/15/07 11:25 AM, "Jeff Raymond" jeff.raymond@internationalhouseofbacon.com wrote:
Common decency is an entirely fluid concept from person to person, though. You adn I don't disagree with the intent in this case, but some find it harmful on a utilitarian scale.
"Some find it harmful" - did you lift that straight out of [[Wikipedia: Avoid weasel words]]? "Some" might "find it harmful" that we require reliable sourcing for anything at all, but we ignore them because we're an encyclopedia, not a blog.
As an encyclopedia that is one of the Internet's top-10 Web sites, we can no longer ignore the fact that what we write in the encyclopedia can have a real-world impact - by republicizing old, completely non-notable and discredited allegations, by bringing out and permanently recording ancient family squabbles for all to see, by having biographies which are nothing but thinly-veiled attack pages and by repeatedly being the vehicle for disgusting libels which can end up being published by us for months without being discovered.
Jeff, I can't help but think that if you were a member of the OTRS team and had to deal with the same things we have to read with on a day-to-day basis, your attitude would change overnight. We, as an editing community, still do a very poor job making sure that Wikipedia isn't a libel-and-attack vector. Human decency is one of the things that requires we change that.
-Travis Mason-Bushman
Travis Mason-Bushman wrote:
Jeff, I can't help but think that if you were a member of the OTRS team and had to deal with the same things we have to read with on a day-to-day basis, your attitude would change overnight. We, as an editing community, still do a very poor job making sure that Wikipedia isn't a libel-and-attack vector. Human decency is one of the things that requires we change that.
i do doubt that. I don't lack sympathy for people, but I also don't think we handle the situations properly.
-Jeff
On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 18:36:51 +0100, "Sam Blacketer" sam.blacketer@googlemail.com wrote:
WP:BLP is potentially open to misuse by the supporters of controversial public figures who wish to 'cleanse' the public record of anything critical. There is a danger of a pile up at the intersection of WP:BLP and WP:NPOV.
As I have said several times, I have no caring if Guille *is* a white supremacist, as long as we can source it to extremely reliable sources, but in this case the claim was a guilt-by-association job based on her being a leader of the Heritage Front. Problem: she states unequivocally that she was never a member of HF, and no source was given to contradict that.
Guy (JzG)
On 4/15/07, Guy Chapman aka JzG guy.chapman@spamcop.net wrote:
Problem: she states unequivocally that she was never a member of HF, and no source was given to contradict that.
I wonder if there is ever going to be a reliable source as to who is a member of a group like the Heritage Front. Extremist groups do not normally identify their members because of likely retaliation. There are their opponents who like to reveal the names of members but they might not be regarded as ideal sources because of their partisanship.
Is that likely to pass WP:BLP? "A. B. is said by Nazi Watch Canada to be a member of Nasty Organisation X <ref>Nazi Watch Canada blog</ref>".
On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 21:00:53 +0100, "Sam Blacketer" sam.blacketer@googlemail.com wrote:
I wonder if there is ever going to be a reliable source as to who is a member of a group like the Heritage Front. Extremist groups do not normally identify their members because of likely retaliation. There are their opponents who like to reveal the names of members but they might not be regarded as ideal sources because of their partisanship.
We don't seem to have that problem with Don Black. Maybe if the group is not covered in that much detail by credible, independent sources, it is not actually that important? Sometimes we only cast glory on these idiots by publicising their existence.
Is that likely to pass WP:BLP? "A. B. is said by Nazi Watch Canada to be a member of Nasty Organisation X <ref>Nazi Watch Canada blog</ref>".
Unless Nazi Watch Canada (in this case a website called CanadianContent - "news and rants from the other side") has a long and glorious record of scrupulous fairness, I'd be very wary of single-sourcing a claim to them.
And actually the cited source explicitly states that she did *not* join the Heritage Front.
http://www.canadiancontent.ca/articles/050901racism.html
Guy (JzG)
On 4/16/07, Guy Chapman aka JzG guy.chapman@spamcop.net wrote:
Where is the sense in undeleting an article whose content is of absolutely no value in creating a sourced neutral article?
Says you. If I was one of the hoi-polloi in this case, I'd probably be miffed too that I couldn't access the deleted article to make my own assessment whether there was anything salvageable therein.
It's very easy to hold a closed box and say "you don't need anything in here". It's much harder to trust the person holding the box, and abandon all belief that there is anything valuable inside.
Steve
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 14:19:33 +1000, "Steve Bennett" stevagewp@gmail.com wrote:
It's very easy to hold a closed box and say "you don't need anything in here". It's much harder to trust the person holding the box, and abandon all belief that there is anything valuable inside.
True. And given the amount of crap you get at RfA, to find that people still insist on trying to second-guess you is quite dispiriting. The only consolation is that they do the same to Jimbo.
Guy (JzG)