Forwarding from foundation-l, after a brief discussion between myself and the original poster. See more at: http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2006-December/thread.html
"English Wikipedia ethnocentric policy affects other communities" -- specifically, our username policy, and the practice of blocking non-Latin usernames on sight.
Seems a number of multi-wiki users have felt pushed away or chagrined by this policy. Single-login seems like it might render the whole thing a moot point -- are we ready for the implications of that? Or does anything need to be done? Do we know how single-login will affect each wiki's ability to set and enforce a username policy, and if so, should changes to the policy result?
Myself, I'm not sure of the answers to any of these questions, just yet. But it seems like we may as well discuss it.
Apologies if I just happened to miss a prior thread -- if it's already happened, I don't remember seeing it.
-Luna
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Aphaia aphaia@gmail.com Date: Dec 20, 2006 12:07 AM Subject: [Foundation-l] English Wikipedia ethnocentric policy affects other communities To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@wikimedia.org
Hello, today a user on Japanese Wikipedia whose account is in Kana (a Japanese script) came to our Admins' noticeboard to request for chaning his username. He said he would have liked to do so because he had changed his username on English Wikipedia.
I repeat again the English Wikipedia community should reconsider how shameful and discriptive policy they has about users' identity and respect of cultural diversity, and how badly it affects other communities. I am very sorry to see such a request fullfiled to our request page.
Cheers, -- KIZU Naoko Wikiquote: http://wikiquote.org * Nessuna poesia prima di noi * _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
This has nothing to do with ethnocentric-ness it's language-centric-ness. The English Wikipedia is written in English so usernames should be in a Latin font so English administrators know who a user is and don't have to wriggle in all sorts of odd angles to refer to such a user or to block them for example. Also, Japanese characters are sufficiently confusing for Westerners to fall under the "Don't make a username that's too similar to another user's" rule.
And then there's people whose system doesn't support Japanese/Chinese/Korean font. It's simply impossible for the English Wikipedia to handle this from a practical standpoint.
Mgm
On 12/20/06, Luna lunasantin@gmail.com wrote:
Forwarding from foundation-l, after a brief discussion between myself and the original poster. See more at: http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2006-December/thread.html
"English Wikipedia ethnocentric policy affects other communities" -- specifically, our username policy, and the practice of blocking non-Latin usernames on sight.
Seems a number of multi-wiki users have felt pushed away or chagrined by this policy. Single-login seems like it might render the whole thing a moot point -- are we ready for the implications of that? Or does anything need to be done? Do we know how single-login will affect each wiki's ability to set and enforce a username policy, and if so, should changes to the policy result?
Myself, I'm not sure of the answers to any of these questions, just yet. But it seems like we may as well discuss it.
Apologies if I just happened to miss a prior thread -- if it's already happened, I don't remember seeing it.
-Luna
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Aphaia aphaia@gmail.com Date: Dec 20, 2006 12:07 AM Subject: [Foundation-l] English Wikipedia ethnocentric policy affects other communities To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@wikimedia.org
Hello, today a user on Japanese Wikipedia whose account is in Kana (a Japanese script) came to our Admins' noticeboard to request for chaning his username. He said he would have liked to do so because he had changed his username on English Wikipedia.
I repeat again the English Wikipedia community should reconsider how shameful and discriptive policy they has about users' identity and respect of cultural diversity, and how badly it affects other communities. I am very sorry to see such a request fullfiled to our request page.
Cheers,
KIZU Naoko Wikiquote: http://wikiquote.org
- Nessuna poesia prima di noi *
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Aren't they used to using transliterated versions of their name in other situations either?
Mgm
On 12/20/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm macgyvermagic@gmail.com wrote:
This has nothing to do with ethnocentric-ness it's language-centric-ness. The English Wikipedia is written in English so usernames should be in a Latin font so English administrators know who a user is and don't have to wriggle in all sorts of odd angles to refer to such a user or to block them for example. Also, Japanese characters are sufficiently confusing for Westerners to fall under the "Don't make a username that's too similar to another user's" rule.
And then there's people whose system doesn't support Japanese/Chinese/Korean font. It's simply impossible for the English Wikipedia to handle this from a practical standpoint.
Mgm
On 12/20/06, Luna lunasantin@gmail.com wrote:
Forwarding from foundation-l, after a brief discussion between myself and the original poster. See more at:
http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2006-December/thread.html
"English Wikipedia ethnocentric policy affects other communities" -- specifically, our username policy, and the practice of blocking non-Latin usernames on sight.
Seems a number of multi-wiki users have felt pushed away or chagrined by this policy. Single-login seems like it might render the whole thing a moot point -- are we ready for the implications of that? Or does anything need to be done? Do we know how single-login will affect each wiki's ability to set and enforce a username policy, and if so, should changes to the policy result?
Myself, I'm not sure of the answers to any of these questions, just yet. But it seems like we may as well discuss it.
Apologies if I just happened to miss a prior thread -- if it's already happened, I don't remember seeing it.
-Luna
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Aphaia aphaia@gmail.com Date: Dec 20, 2006 12:07 AM Subject: [Foundation-l] English Wikipedia ethnocentric policy affects other communities To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@wikimedia.org
Hello, today a user on Japanese Wikipedia whose account is in Kana (a Japanese script) came to our Admins' noticeboard to request for chaning his username. He said he would have liked to do so because he had changed his username on English Wikipedia.
I repeat again the English Wikipedia community should reconsider how shameful and discriptive policy they has about users' identity and respect of cultural diversity, and how badly it affects other communities. I am very sorry to see such a request fullfiled to our request page.
Cheers,
KIZU Naoko Wikiquote: http://wikiquote.org
- Nessuna poesia prima di noi *
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
On 12/20/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm macgyvermagic@gmail.com wrote:
Aren't they used to using transliterated versions of their name in other situations either?
I'm sure we would get less complaints about this issue if we were still using Latin1 on en. :)
-- Abi
On 12/20/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm macgyvermagic@gmail.com wrote:
This has nothing to do with ethnocentric-ness it's language-centric-ness. The English Wikipedia is written in English so usernames should be in a Latin font so English administrators know who a user is and don't have to wriggle in all sorts of odd angles to refer to such a user or to block them for example. Also, Japanese characters are sufficiently confusing for Westerners to fall under the "Don't make a username that's too similar to another user's" rule.
Convenience for enwiki administrators is no excuse for being rude to contributors from other language Wikipedias.
And then there's people whose system doesn't support Japanese/Chinese/Korean font. It's simply impossible for the English Wikipedia to handle this from a practical standpoint.
We could stop blocking users who haven't done anything wrong, and only annoy them when their behaviour becomes a real instead of a potential problem (you know, assume good faith). If a user with a username in Telugu does nothing but add Telugu interwikilinks, why should I care that I can't read their username? Once the weird-looking username is used for vandalism, we can assume bad faith and block it. In most other cases, an ASCII sig and (if the user agrees) a username change should be enough if the user does more than add interwikilinks.
It is also not nice of us to block people who might not be speaking English with a block message that they can't understand. If we block people who are here only to make interwikilinks because they want to use the same username as on their home wiki, we should at least provide a block message in their native language.
Kusma
On 12/20/06, Kusma kusma.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/20/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm macgyvermagic@gmail.com wrote:
This has nothing to do with ethnocentric-ness it's
language-centric-ness.
The English Wikipedia is written in English so usernames should be in a Latin font so English administrators know who a user is and don't have
to
wriggle in all sorts of odd angles to refer to such a user or to block
them
for example. Also, Japanese characters are sufficiently confusing for Westerners to fall under the "Don't make a username that's too similar
to
another user's" rule.
Convenience for enwiki administrators is no excuse for being rude to contributors from other language Wikipedias.
And then there's people whose system doesn't support
Japanese/Chinese/Korean
font. It's simply impossible for the English Wikipedia to handle this from a practical standpoint.
We could stop blocking users who haven't done anything wrong, and only annoy them when their behaviour becomes a real instead of a potential problem (you know, assume good faith). If a user with a username in Telugu does nothing but add Telugu interwikilinks, why should I care that I can't read their username? Once the weird-looking username is used for vandalism, we can assume bad faith and block it. In most other cases, an ASCII sig and (if the user agrees) a username change should be enough if the user does more than add interwikilinks.
In part because usernames that use non-Latin character sets are completely indistinguishable to someone without those fonts loaded.
Hard to figure out if ??????? is the good user and ??????? is the bad one.
It is also not nice of us to block people who might not be speaking
English with a block message that they can't understand. If we block people who are here only to make interwikilinks because they want to use the same username as on their home wiki, we should at least provide a block message in their native language.
That would be nice.
On 12/20/06, Kusma kusma.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/20/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm macgyvermagic@gmail.com wrote:
This has nothing to do with ethnocentric-ness it's
language-centric-ness.
The English Wikipedia is written in English so usernames should be in a Latin font so English administrators know who a user is and don't have
to
wriggle in all sorts of odd angles to refer to such a user or to block
them
for example. Also, Japanese characters are sufficiently confusing for Westerners to fall under the "Don't make a username that's too similar
to
another user's" rule.
Convenience for enwiki administrators is no excuse for being rude to contributors from other language Wikipedias.
And then there's people whose system doesn't support
Japanese/Chinese/Korean
font. It's simply impossible for the English Wikipedia to handle this from a practical standpoint.
We could stop blocking users who haven't done anything wrong, and only annoy them when their behaviour becomes a real instead of a potential problem (you know, assume good faith). If a user with a username in Telugu does nothing but add Telugu interwikilinks, why should I care that I can't read their username? Once the weird-looking username is used for vandalism, we can assume bad faith and block it. In most other cases, an ASCII sig and (if the user agrees) a username change should be enough if the user does more than add interwikilinks.
It is also not nice of us to block people who might not be speaking English with a block message that they can't understand. If we block people who are here only to make interwikilinks because they want to use the same username as on their home wiki, we should at least provide a block message in their native language.
Kusma
One major issue here has been impersonations using non-latin characters.
This already happens with "1" for "l", and "0" for "o" or "O". It *is* a problem; we've had numerous cases of impersonators, some of whom have been very subtle vandals. Adding more visually indistinct characters to the username characters list is potentially real trouble.
I don't know that anyone really thought this all the way through, the implications for enwiki policies combined with the future single-signon for all wikipedia sites... 8-(
I find this complaint ill-advised. This is an English-language project; English language uses Latin script; ergo, non-Latin usernames are not acceptable. Naturally, I want to know the usernames of people I speak to, but I would not know how to refer to an editor who spells his name in Japanese or Armenian, since I can't read either Japanese or Armenian. There is nothing ethnocentric about that. Best, Andrey
On 12/20/06, Luna lunasantin@gmail.com wrote:
Forwarding from foundation-l, after a brief discussion between myself and the original poster. See more at: http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2006-December/thread.html
"English Wikipedia ethnocentric policy affects other communities" -- specifically, our username policy, and the practice of blocking non-Latin usernames on sight.
Seems a number of multi-wiki users have felt pushed away or chagrined by this policy. Single-login seems like it might render the whole thing a moot point -- are we ready for the implications of that? Or does anything need to be done? Do we know how single-login will affect each wiki's ability to set and enforce a username policy, and if so, should changes to the policy result?
Myself, I'm not sure of the answers to any of these questions, just yet. But it seems like we may as well discuss it.
Apologies if I just happened to miss a prior thread -- if it's already happened, I don't remember seeing it.
-Luna
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Aphaia aphaia@gmail.com Date: Dec 20, 2006 12:07 AM Subject: [Foundation-l] English Wikipedia ethnocentric policy affects other communities To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@wikimedia.org
Hello, today a user on Japanese Wikipedia whose account is in Kana (a Japanese script) came to our Admins' noticeboard to request for chaning his username. He said he would have liked to do so because he had changed his username on English Wikipedia.
I repeat again the English Wikipedia community should reconsider how shameful and discriptive policy they has about users' identity and respect of cultural diversity, and how badly it affects other communities. I am very sorry to see such a request fullfiled to our request page.
Cheers,
KIZU Naoko Wikiquote: http://wikiquote.org
- Nessuna poesia prima di noi *
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
On 12/20/06, Andrey yaroslavl@gmail.com wrote:
I find this complaint ill-advised. This is an English-language project;
No.
Wikipedia is a multilingual project. You need to take hindsight and consider users not as accounts, but as people who edit on different Wikimedia projects and in different languages. This is precisely the philosophy that's behind SUL.
We talk about the English-language Wikipedia here, no? Other Wikimedia projects allow usernames in non-Latin scripts, as best I know. For instance, in Russian wikipedia, you may get a username in Cyrillic. Most complaints are from those editors who have a non-Latin username in their national wikipedia and fail to see why they can't keep it in English wikipedia. Best, Andrey
On 12/20/06, Guillaume Paumier guillom.pom@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/20/06, Andrey yaroslavl@gmail.com wrote:
I find this complaint ill-advised. This is an English-language project;
No.
Wikipedia is a multilingual project. You need to take hindsight and consider users not as accounts, but as people who edit on different Wikimedia projects and in different languages. This is precisely the philosophy that's behind SUL.
-- Guillaume Paumier Disciplus Simplex http://fr.wikipedia.org : Resistance is futile — You will be assimilated. _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Andrey wrote:
We talk about the English-language Wikipedia here, no? Other Wikimedia projects allow usernames in non-Latin scripts, as best I know. For instance, in Russian wikipedia, you may get a username in Cyrillic. Most complaints are from those editors who have a non-Latin username in their national wikipedia and fail to see why they can't keep it in English wikipedia. Best, Andrey
Single User Login (SUL) _is_ coming soon. This means that someone with a login on the Russian Wikipedia will be able to have the same username on the English Wikipedia (just as an example).
The question is, are we ready for this?
-Rich
[adding foundation-l back to cc]
On 20/12/06, Rich Holton richholton@gmail.com wrote:
Andrey wrote:
We talk about the English-language Wikipedia here, no? Other Wikimedia projects allow usernames in non-Latin scripts, as best I know. For instance, in Russian wikipedia, you may get a username in Cyrillic. Most complaints are from those editors who have a non-Latin username in their national wikipedia and fail to see why they can't keep it in English wikipedia. Best,
Single User Login (SUL) _is_ coming soon. This means that someone with a login on the Russian Wikipedia will be able to have the same username on the English Wikipedia (just as an example). The question is, are we ready for this?
Yeah. I should point out that I do think blocking non-Latin character sets is probably a bad thing, and the only reason it's now done on en: is one way of dealing with bot-vandals. This problem will need addressing sooner rather than later.
Are any of the vandal fighters reading this?
- d.
Rich Holton wrote:
Andrey wrote:
We talk about the English-language Wikipedia here, no? Other Wikimedia projects allow usernames in non-Latin scripts, as best I know. For instance, in Russian wikipedia, you may get a username in Cyrillic. Most complaints are from those editors who have a non-Latin username in their national wikipedia and fail to see why they can't keep it in English wikipedia. Best, Andrey
Single User Login (SUL) _is_ coming soon. This means that someone with a login on the Russian Wikipedia will be able to have the same username on the English Wikipedia (just as an example).
The question is, are we ready for this?
-Rich _______________________________________________
More than "will be able to have". "Will have to have". It will be one account for all projects.
Ant
Anthere wrote:
Rich Holton wrote:
Andrey wrote:
We talk about the English-language Wikipedia here, no? Other Wikimedia projects allow usernames in non-Latin scripts, as best I know. For instance, in Russian wikipedia, you may get a username in Cyrillic. Most complaints are from those editors who have a non-Latin username in their national wikipedia and fail to see why they can't keep it in English wikipedia. Best, Andrey
Single User Login (SUL) _is_ coming soon. This means that someone with a login on the Russian Wikipedia will be able to have the same username on the English Wikipedia (just as an example).
The question is, are we ready for this?
-Rich _______________________________________________
More than "will be able to have". "Will have to have". It will be one account for all projects.
Ant
Yes. Thanks for that important clarification. -Rich
On 12/20/06, Rich Holton richholton@gmail.com wrote:
Yes. Thanks for that important clarification.
Does anyone know how SUL will work with the "new users" log? Currently, we monitor the new users log, and then sometimes block obvious sleeper accounts. Do we get a single new users log for all wikimedia projects? Or will there be an "activate my SUL account on this project" button that will put an entry in a site-specific new users log, or what?
On 12/20/06, Anthere Anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
Rich Holton wrote:
Andrey wrote:
We talk about the English-language Wikipedia here, no? Other Wikimedia projects allow usernames in non-Latin scripts, as best I know. For
instance,
in Russian wikipedia, you may get a username in Cyrillic. Most
complaints
are from those editors who have a non-Latin username in their national wikipedia and fail to see why they can't keep it in English wikipedia.
Best,
Andrey
Single User Login (SUL) _is_ coming soon. This means that someone with a login on the Russian Wikipedia will be able to have the same username on the English Wikipedia (just as an example).
The question is, are we ready for this?
-Rich _______________________________________________
More than "will be able to have". "Will have to have". It will be one account for all projects.
Ant
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
"BUT, soon, this will not be possible any more. All users will have only ONE account."
Nothing is keeping users from creating a separate account under another name if they want to have different identities on different wikis for a legitimate reason.
Mgm
On 12/20/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm macgyvermagic@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/20/06, Anthere Anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
Rich Holton wrote:
Andrey wrote:
We talk about the English-language Wikipedia here, no? Other Wikimedia projects allow usernames in non-Latin scripts, as best I know. For
instance,
in Russian wikipedia, you may get a username in Cyrillic. Most
complaints
are from those editors who have a non-Latin username in their national wikipedia and fail to see why they can't keep it in English wikipedia.
Best,
Andrey
Single User Login (SUL) _is_ coming soon. This means that someone with
a
login on the Russian Wikipedia will be able to have the same username
on
the English Wikipedia (just as an example).
The question is, are we ready for this?
-Rich _______________________________________________
More than "will be able to have". "Will have to have". It will be one account for all projects.
"BUT, soon, this will not be possible any more. All users will have only ONE account."
Nothing is keeping users from creating a separate account under another name if they want to have different identities on different wikis for a legitimate reason.
When we go to one account I think it would be a good feature for people to be able to have language-specific versions of their account name.
That would make it a lot easier for people to merge accounts, anyway.
Please, have a look at http://www.wikipedia.org
There is a whole world aside from the english project. The japanese wikipedia has over 300 000 articles. We are working in over 200 languages. English is only part of it.
But let me explain why it is an issue.
In a very short time (hopefully, ahum), a new feature will be unable on the project. The Single Login.
The Single Login will make it so, that one person is registed on all projects and all languages, with only one account. Right now, the account system is such that one person has one account for each project and for each language as it is now.
So, right now, if an english user, called in real life William Sommerfield, has created an account [[user:William]] on the english wikipedia, he may be [[user:WilliamSommerfield]] on the english wikibooks, and [[user:WilliamS]] on the french wikinews.
And a bilingual japanese english editor may be under a japanese user name on the japanese wikipedia, and under an english user name on the english wikipedia (thus respecting your rule of avoiding non-latin caracters).
BUT, soon, this will not be possible any more. All users will have only ONE account.
So, if a japanese person has an account on the japanese wikipedia, with non latin caracters, he should not have to be forced to change his global name to unnatural caracters, just to be able to do a couple of edits under his user name on the english wikipedia.
Similarly, an english editor should be able to edit under his latin name on the japanese wikipedia.
Do you understand the problem now ?
Now, it is reported that english editors do not like seeing non latin caracters names, because it is difficult to distinguish and may be confused with bot gibberish.
As reported on the Foundation list, Wikigod™ Brion has already addressed this; it is no longer possible to create usernames which uses several scripts. So you cannot mix Latin and Cyrillic characters, or Latin and Greek, or even Greek and Cyrillic (or Arabic or Devanagari or …), so that is no longer an issue.
There is still the issue of "recognising" names, and a guideline for that matter might be helpful. But it is not okay to force people to change their user name just to fit one wikipedia rules. And it certainly is not okay to block people from non english cultures because they refuse to comply to change their name for a westernish one. The main result it would have would be to prevent most people from asian countries to participate to the english wikipedia. Is that suitable ? I'd say it is not.
So, rather than saying the complaint is ill-advise, I rather recommand that we work together trying to set up a compromise which will be acceptable by all parties. Saying "your name is not valid because I can not read your language, so you can't edit Wikipedia" is not what I would call a compromise.
Anthere
Andrey wrote:
I find this complaint ill-advised. This is an English-language project; English language uses Latin script; ergo, non-Latin usernames are not acceptable. Naturally, I want to know the usernames of people I speak to, but I would not know how to refer to an editor who spells his name in Japanese or Armenian, since I can't read either Japanese or Armenian. There is nothing ethnocentric about that. Best, Andrey
On 12/20/06, Luna lunasantin@gmail.com wrote:
Forwarding from foundation-l, after a brief discussion between myself and the original poster. See more at: http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2006-December/thread.html
"English Wikipedia ethnocentric policy affects other communities" -- specifically, our username policy, and the practice of blocking non-Latin usernames on sight.
Seems a number of multi-wiki users have felt pushed away or chagrined by this policy. Single-login seems like it might render the whole thing a moot point -- are we ready for the implications of that? Or does anything need to be done? Do we know how single-login will affect each wiki's ability to set and enforce a username policy, and if so, should changes to the policy result?
Myself, I'm not sure of the answers to any of these questions, just yet. But it seems like we may as well discuss it.
Apologies if I just happened to miss a prior thread -- if it's already happened, I don't remember seeing it.
-Luna
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Aphaia aphaia@gmail.com Date: Dec 20, 2006 12:07 AM Subject: [Foundation-l] English Wikipedia ethnocentric policy affects other communities To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@wikimedia.org
Hello, today a user on Japanese Wikipedia whose account is in Kana (a Japanese script) came to our Admins' noticeboard to request for chaning his username. He said he would have liked to do so because he had changed his username on English Wikipedia.
I repeat again the English Wikipedia community should reconsider how shameful and discriptive policy they has about users' identity and respect of cultural diversity, and how badly it affects other communities. I am very sorry to see such a request fullfiled to our request page.
Cheers,
KIZU Naoko Wikiquote: http://wikiquote.org
- Nessuna poesia prima di noi *
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
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The issue isn't really ethnocentric, or language-centric, it's script-centric. SUL should have a feature that allows you to transliterate your name into various scripts (or even does it for you if possible, there isn't necessarily a one-to-one relationship between characters [or sequences of characters] in different scripts, so it could be quite hard) and it uses the appropriate one on each project. The same name written in two different scripts is still the same name, it's just written in a way that the people reading it can understand.
It's not just a matter of distinguishing between two Japanese, say, names, it's also a matter of pronoucing them - it can slow down reading quite a lot of some of the words aren't pronouncible to you (even if you aren't reading out loud).
On Wed, Dec 20, 2006 at 02:48:48PM +0000, Thomas Dalton wrote:
The issue isn't really ethnocentric, or language-centric, it's script-centric. SUL should have a feature that allows you to transliterate your name into various scripts (or even does it for you if possible, there isn't necessarily a one-to-one relationship between characters [or sequences of characters] in different scripts, so it could be quite hard) and it uses the appropriate one on each project. The same name written in two different scripts is still the same name, it's just written in a way that the people reading it can understand.
It's not just a matter of distinguishing between two Japanese, say, names, it's also a matter of pronoucing them - it can slow down reading quite a lot of some of the words aren't pronouncible to you (even if you aren't reading out loud).
So ... what would you do about names like "Seabhcan" (or "Sean," for that matter) that are pronounced in ways nonintuitive to most Anglophones?
On 12/20/06, sean@epoptic.com sean@epoptic.com wrote:
On Wed, Dec 20, 2006 at 02:48:48PM +0000, Thomas Dalton wrote:
The issue isn't really ethnocentric, or language-centric, it's script-centric. SUL should have a feature that allows you to transliterate your name into various scripts (or even does it for you if possible, there isn't necessarily a one-to-one relationship between characters [or sequences of characters] in different scripts, so it could be quite hard) and it uses the appropriate one on each project. The same name written in two different scripts is still the same name, it's just written in a way that the people reading it can understand.
It's not just a matter of distinguishing between two Japanese, say, names, it's also a matter of pronoucing them - it can slow down reading quite a lot of some of the words aren't pronouncible to you (even if you aren't reading out loud).
So ... what would you do about names like "Seabhcan" (or "Sean," for that matter) that are pronounced in ways nonintuitive to most Anglophones?
I assign a mental pronunciation that is probably quite incorrect. The key point is that I *can* assign a pronunciation to "Seabhcan" or "Cthulhu", and I can easily tell the difference between the two. I can't do that for something like "メインページ".
--- Anthere Anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
There is still the issue of "recognising" names, and a guideline for that matter might be helpful. But it is not okay to force people to change their user name just to fit one wikipedia rules.
I disagree. I don't think it's OK to allow editors on the English language Wikipedia to have names that are going to be unmemorable and indistinguishable for most other editors.
Perhaps the software can be set-up so that users with non-Latin-script names can specify a transliteration of their username for en?
-- Matt
Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Matt_Crypto Blog: http://cipher-text.blogspot.com
Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Matt R wrote:
Perhaps the software can be set-up so that users with non-Latin-script names can specify a transliteration of their username for en?
The transliteration will be useful for more than en: - ru: editors are also more likely to recognize Latin transliterations of ja: .
And before anybody screams about "Latin charset imperialism", note that all the nations of the world have long agreed to include Latin versions of their names on their postage stamps, in addition to any preferred native scripts (UK gets to omit name entirely, as the first to issue stamps), for the benefit of postal clerks who are not expert linguists.
Stan
On 21/12/06, Stan Shebs stanshebs@earthlink.net wrote:
Matt R wrote:
Perhaps the software can be set-up so that users with non-Latin-script names can specify a transliteration of their username for en?
The transliteration will be useful for more than en: - ru: editors are also more likely to recognize Latin transliterations of ja: .
And before anybody screams about "Latin charset imperialism", note that all the nations of the world have long agreed to include Latin versions of their names on their postage stamps, in addition to any preferred native scripts (UK gets to omit name entirely, as the first to issue stamps), for the benefit of postal clerks who are not expert linguists.
Stan
Okay, that situation screams the remains of british imperialism through and through? Wait, was that just an introductory evidence stage!
Peter
On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 18:44:45 +1000, "Peter Ansell" ansell.peter@gmail.com wrote:
that situation screams the remains of british imperialism through and through?
Postage stamps come in two kinds: British stamps, in sets, at the beginning of the album, and foreign ones all jumbled up at the back. Any gibbon can tell you that...
(yes, it's a quote)
Guy (JzG)
On 21/12/06, Guy Chapman aka JzG guy.chapman@spamcop.net wrote:
On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 18:44:45 +1000, "Peter Ansell" ansell.peter@gmail.com wrote:
that situation screams the remains of british imperialism through and through?
Postage stamps come in two kinds: British stamps, in sets, at the beginning of the album, and foreign ones all jumbled up at the back. Any gibbon can tell you that...
(yes, it's a quote)
Guy (JzG)
It was meant to be semi-humorous :)
Peter
Guy Chapman aka JzG wrote:
"Peter Ansell" wrote:
that situation screams the remains of british imperialism through and through?
Postage stamps come in two kinds: British stamps, in sets, at the beginning of the album, and foreign ones all jumbled up at the back. Any gibbon can tell you that...
Gibbons represents a particularly British form of monkey business.
U. S. made albums put the U. S. stamps at the beginning of the album. These albums are regularly sold in Canada. When he buys such an album in looseleaf format a Canadian collector's first act will be to refile that section under the letter "U".
Ec
On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 01:04:38 -0800, Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net wrote:
U. S. made albums put the U. S. stamps at the beginning of the album. These albums are regularly sold in Canada. When he buys such an album in looseleaf format a Canadian collector's first act will be to refile that section under the letter "U".
"F". For Foreign :o)
Guy (JzG)
Ray Saintonge wrote:
Guy Chapman aka JzG wrote:
"Peter Ansell" wrote:
that situation screams the remains of british imperialism through and through?
Postage stamps come in two kinds: British stamps, in sets, at the beginning of the album, and foreign ones all jumbled up at the back. Any gibbon can tell you that...
Gibbons represents a particularly British form of monkey business.
U. S. made albums put the U. S. stamps at the beginning of the album. These albums are regularly sold in Canada. When he buys such an album in looseleaf format a Canadian collector's first act will be to refile that section under the letter "U".
I don't have one myself, but I imagine that Australian stamp albums have the Australian stamps at the front...
Matt R wrote:
--- Anthere Anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
There is still the issue of "recognising" names, and a guideline for that matter might be helpful. But it is not okay to force people to change their user name just to fit one wikipedia rules.
I disagree. I don't think it's OK to allow editors on the English language Wikipedia to have names that are going to be unmemorable and indistinguishable for most other editors.
Perhaps the software can be set-up so that users with non-Latin-script names can specify a transliteration of their username for en?
-- Matt
Please re-read what I wrote above. I didnot say an editor with a non latin caracter name will necessarily edit the english wikipedia as is. Solutions have been suggested, some suitable, maybe others non suitable.
But I repeat. There is no way the english wikipedia will force a japanese editor to change his name to a name he can not himself read and understand. Editors will be able to create accounts in a wide variety of scripts. We pride ourselves in being an international project. If this is so, editors should have the opportunity to work on wikipedia with a user name they are able to understand.
A good question from Abigail. I did not see any answer to, and I hope Brion can give a feedback on this.
She said
Does anyone know how SUL will work with the "new users" log? Currently, we monitor the new users log, and then sometimes block obvious sleeper accounts. Do we get a single new users log for all wikimedia projects? Or will there be an "activate my SUL account on this project" button that will put an entry in a site-specific new users log, or what?
Brion ? How will that work ?
Ant
Anthere schreef:
But I repeat. There is no way the english wikipedia will force a japanese editor to change his name to a name he can not himself read and understand.
If a Japanese editor cannot read or understand any word written in Latin script, I don't want him or her editing the English wikipedia.
Eugene
On 12/21/06, Eugene van der Pijll eugene@vanderpijll.nl wrote:
If a Japanese editor cannot read or understand any word written in Latin script, I don't want him or her editing the English wikipedia.
What if he's just adding interwiki links?
Steve
Steve Bennett schreef:
On 12/21/06, Eugene van der Pijll eugene@vanderpijll.nl wrote:
If a Japanese editor cannot read or understand any word written in Latin script, I don't want him or her editing the English wikipedia.
What if he's just adding interwiki links?
How would he know if it's the correct article to add the interwiki links to?
Eugene
On 12/21/06, Eugene van der Pijll eugene@vanderpijll.nl wrote:
How would he know if it's the correct article to add the interwiki links to?
Perhaps because the Japanese article he was working on has an interwiki link to this article. I've updated interwiki links on foreign Wikipeida's before without being able to read the language. Only in Latin-based scripts, but I think the principle is the same.
Steve
Steve Bennett schreef:
On 12/21/06, Eugene van der Pijll eugene@vanderpijll.nl wrote:
How would he know if it's the correct article to add the interwiki links to?
Perhaps because the Japanese article he was working on has an interwiki link to this article. I've updated interwiki links on foreign Wikipeida's before without being able to read the language. Only in Latin-based scripts, but I think the principle is the same.
There is no need for that; there are bots that do that equally badly as you can do it by hand.
Eugene
Perhaps Brion can implement something that allows automatic transliteration of eastern fonts for people who choose it in their preferences. Or maybe he can attach some recognizable attribute to such accounts people can use to distinguish between similar eastern names.
Mgm
On 12/21/06, Eugene van der Pijll eugene@vanderpijll.nl wrote:
Steve Bennett schreef:
On 12/21/06, Eugene van der Pijll eugene@vanderpijll.nl wrote:
How would he know if it's the correct article to add the interwiki
links
to?
Perhaps because the Japanese article he was working on has an interwiki link to this article. I've updated interwiki links on foreign Wikipeida's before without being able to read the language. Only in Latin-based scripts, but I think the principle is the same.
There is no need for that; there are bots that do that equally badly as you can do it by hand.
Eugene _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@Wikipedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
On 12/20/06, Anthere Anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
Please, have a look at http://www.wikipedia.org
This is in large part a question of philosophy. Is en.wikipedia (or ru.wikipedia, or fr.wikipedia, or ar.wikipedia or... you get the picture) a project in its own right or merely a section of Wikipedia, a trans-lingual project?
The answer is, of course, "both". A compromise must be sought to manage both the idea of a global project and the specific needs of individual projects.
So, rather than saying the complaint is ill-advise, I rather recommand that we work together trying to set up a compromise which will be acceptable by all parties. Saying "your name is not valid because I can not read your language, so you can't edit Wikipedia" is not what I would call a compromise.
No-one is actually saying this other than those who are maligning en.wikipedia. This thread was started as an en.wp-bash and it has remained that way, not looking at the issues but rather flinging dirt at a particular project.
I am sorry, Anthere, that you are doing exactly the same.