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Should MP3 files be allowed on wikipedia - Current ongoing discussion.

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Stop the bus: threats are out of...

Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

17 Jul 2004 17 Jul '04

2:49 a.m.

There is an ongoing discussion whether MP3 files should be allowed on Wikipeda, check it out - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Sound#MP3_on_Wikipedia

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Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales

17 Jul 17 Jul

7:01 a.m.

Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:

There is an ongoing discussion whether MP3 files should be allowed on Wikipeda, check it out - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Sound#MP3_on_Wikipedia

To me, this is a very simple question. If a file format can't be read with free software, then we must not use it. If a file format can be read with free software, but can't be created with free software, then we should strongly discourage the use. Notice that the GIF patent threat was to creators of software like The Gimp (to make the files) rather than to creators of software like Mozilla (to read the files). The situation with MP3 is, as I understand it, much worse. Here the threat is to both encoders and decoders. Therefore we must not use MP3 files. It is important to undertsand that the issue of convenience is at the heart of our fight for freedom. People continue to use proprietary formats and proprietary software because they perceive it as being more convenient. One of the most important things that we can do is to illustrate that proprietary formats are actually inconvenient, so long as some people choose to use formats that are free. And if we at Wikipedia do our small part to get people to download and install a proper free decoder (this will generally just be a codec in a player) so that we make the free Ogg Vorbis format as convenient as the proprietary format, we will have achieved something important. --Jimbo

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Timwi

11:54 a.m.

New subject: Should MP3 files be allowed on wikipedia - Current ongoing discussion.

Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:

The situation with MP3 is, as I understand it, much worse. Here the threat is to both encoders and decoders.

Audacity (free sound editor) has no complaints reading MP3s, but if you try to save as MP3, you get a message box telling you about licensing and patents and how you will have to install the LAME encoder. I really don't think decoding MP3s is covered by patents. Timwi

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Neil Harris

12:41 p.m.

Timwi wrote:

Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:

The situation with MP3 is, as I understand it, much worse. Here the threat is to both encoders and decoders.

Audacity (free sound editor) has no complaints reading MP3s, but if you try to save as MP3, you get a message box telling you about licensing and patents and how you will have to install the LAME encoder. I really don't think decoding MP3s is covered by patents. Timwi

I think you'll find that Thomson think otherwise. See http://www.mpeg.org/MPEG/mp3-licensing-faq.pdf Although they state: "More in general, no license fee is expected for desktop software decoders/players that are distributed free-of-charge for personal use." (Section 2.1.1, page 4), this does not appear to cover other possible Wikipedia uses such as access to Wikipedia over mobile devices running free software. Until there is a clear royalty-free patent licence grant for MP3 decoding by free software, I suggest we go with raw soundfiles or Ogg Vorbis. -- Neil

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Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

1:12 p.m.

New subject: Should MP3 files be allowed on wikipedia - Current ongoing discussion.

Or other free formats for that matter, Speex or FLAC On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:41:29 +0100, Neil Harris <usenet(a)tonal.clara.co.uk> wrote:

Timwi wrote:

Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:

The situation with MP3 is, as I understand it, much worse. Here the threat is to both encoders and decoders.

Audacity (free sound editor) has no complaints reading MP3s, but if you try to save as MP3, you get a message box telling you about licensing and patents and how you will have to install the LAME encoder. I really don't think decoding MP3s is covered by patents. Timwi

I think you'll find that Thomson think otherwise. See http://www.mpeg.org/MPEG/mp3-licensing-faq.pdf Although they state: "More in general, no license fee is expected for desktop software decoders/players that are distributed free-of-charge for personal use." (Section 2.1.1, page 4), this does not appear to cover other possible Wikipedia uses such as access to Wikipedia over mobile devices running free software. Until there is a clear royalty-free patent licence grant for MP3 decoding by free software, I suggest we go with raw soundfiles or Ogg Vorbis. -- Neil _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales

10:37 p.m.

Neil Harris wrote:

Although they state: "More in general, no license fee is expected for desktop software decoders/players that are distributed free-of-charge for personal use." (Section 2.1.1, page 4), this does not appear to cover other possible Wikipedia uses such as access to Wikipedia over mobile devices running free software.

Yes, 'free-of-charge for personal use' may be gratis, but it isn't libre. --Jimbo

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Mark Richards

18 Jul 18 Jul

1:08 a.m.

I agree, there is no compelling reason not to use ogg or something else that is free. Is there a 'mainstream' player (wmp, real or something) that plays ogg these days? Mark --- "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" <jwales(a)wikia.com> wrote:

Neil Harris wrote:

Although they state: "More in general, no license

fee is expected

for desktop software decoders/players that are

distributed

free-of-charge for personal use." (Section 2.1.1,

page 4), this does

not appear to cover other possible Wikipedia uses

such as access to

Wikipedia over mobile devices running free

software. Yes, 'free-of-charge for personal use' may be gratis, but it isn't libre. --Jimbo _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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Fennec Foxen

2:28 a.m.

New subject: Should MP3 files be allowed on wikipedia - Current ongoing discussion.

On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:08:58 -0700 (PDT), Mark Richards <marich712000(a)yahoo.com> wrote:

I agree, there is no compelling reason not to use ogg or something else that is free. Is there a 'mainstream' player (wmp, real or something) that plays ogg these days? Mark

Winamp. Foobar2000. ogg123, xmms, mplayer. -- You keep using that word... I do not think it means what you think it means.

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Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason

4 a.m.

New subject: Should MP3 files be allowed on wikipedia - Current ongoing discussion.

actually there is a plugin for directshow ( which windows media player uses ). Furthermore, shouldnt we also reccomend Ogg FLAC; Ogg Speex and Ogg Theora on that page, perhaps move it to Wikipedia:Media, or better yet to meta as it concerns all projects. On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:08:58 -0700 (PDT), Mark Richards <marich712000(a)yahoo.com> wrote:

I agree, there is no compelling reason not to use ogg or something else that is free. Is there a 'mainstream' player (wmp, real or something) that plays ogg these days? Mark --- "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" <jwales(a)wikia.com> wrote:

Neil Harris wrote:

Although they state: "More in general, no license

fee is expected

for desktop software decoders/players that are

distributed

free-of-charge for personal use." (Section 2.1.1,

page 4), this does

not appear to cover other possible Wikipedia uses

such as access to

Wikipedia over mobile devices running free

software. Yes, 'free-of-charge for personal use' may be gratis, but it isn't libre. --Jimbo _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

__________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales

19 Jul 19 Jul

2:19 p.m.

Mark Richards wrote:

I agree, there is no compelling reason not to use ogg or something else that is free. Is there a 'mainstream' player (wmp, real or something) that plays ogg these days?

I am under the impression that it's trivial for people to play ogg in all the major players. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogg_Vorbis#Software --Jimbo

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Mark Richards

5:11 p.m.

I thought so too, but it's sometimes difficult to know what comes out of the box when you are running a whole lot of installed stuff. Mark --- "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" <jwales(a)wikia.com> wrote:

Mark Richards wrote:

I agree, there is no compelling reason not to use

ogg

or something else that is free. Is there a 'mainstream' player (wmp, real or something) that plays ogg these days?

I am under the impression that it's trivial for people to play ogg in all the major players. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogg_Vorbis#Software --Jimbo _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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Fennec Foxen
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales
Mark Richards
Neil Harris
Timwi
Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason