One of the frequent inclusion/deletion arguments has been over "cruft" of various sorts - plot summaries, "in popular culture" sections, strange but interesting lists ("List of songs that mention the title over n times" where n was something weird and large was an old favorite), etc. The basic problem in these cases is that while the information is often verifiable, it seems somewhat tangental to a reasoned and well-organized presentation of major facts on a subject.
On the other hand, it is not irrelevant as such either - quite the contrary, the information is often valuable, if not in a strictly encyclopedic sense. Certainly the drive to eliminate articles that are just plot summaries, while well-intentioned, would serve to destroy a useful resource that is not duplicated by other free content projects at present.
In print publications such interesting tangents exist in the form of sidebars. Open Time or Newsweek and you'll see them all over the place - articles will hum merrily along, and off on the side will be small explanations, graphs, and other tangental pieces of information. But for whatever reason, in the online structure, we've largely declined to take advantage of that. As a result, we have a messy structure of sub-articles and chunks of what are essentially sidebar data dropped into an article. And this affects a wide range of articles. On the one hand you have something like [[School Hard]] - an article on an episode of Buffy - that is interrupted by a credits section, numerous lists, and a huge table of in-universe chronology. On the other you have something like [[Democratic Party (United States) presidential primaries, 2008]] where a narrative of what happened is abandoned in favor of graphs, charts, etc.
In both cases the problem is the same - relevant chunks of data are choking out the article. And in the latter case, a fair amount has already been done about this - there are already 8 sub-articles breaking out lengthy chunks of data from this article.
A quick tour of a number of major topics shows the same result with sub-articles. [[Hillary Rodham Clinton presidential campaign, 2008]] has [[Political positions of Hillary Rodham Clinton]] - a vital chunk of information that still amounts to a list of positions, and is not meaningfully an article.
I propose that we need to dramatically rethink how we treat chunks of data on Wikipedia. In many cases - from fictional topics to real-world ones - there is often a large chunk of information that is worth presenting, but that does not present well in article form. Our current method of spin-off and sub-articles leaves us with a mass of articles that often make poor articles even as they contain valuable information. (And I would say that [[School Hard]] and [[Political positions of Hillary Rodham Clinton]] are articles of more or less exactly equal quality)
I propose that we start an active repository for "sidebar content" - large chunks of data, lists, tables, summaries, etc. This could be done as a namespace - the Sidebar or Data namespace - or as a separate project - WikiData. But in either case, the goal would be the same - verifiable information that is useful in researching and learning about a topic, but that does not present well in the format of an encyclopedic overview of the topic. We'd need to come up with a good navigation engine - something, in other words, that avoids the litany of mistakes in the category system. But I think that this would let us dramatically re conceptualize how we cover a number of topics in a way that allows both the depth of (at times idiosyncratic) information that is widely recognized as one of our great strengths and the clear, well-organized prose that we strive for in encyclopedia articles.
In more practical terms, what I'm imagining would be an article on, say, Buffy the Vampire Slayer that had some clear link to data and sidebars. Click on it, and a navigational engine comes up that guides you through the sidebar content - a list of episodes that one could delve into and, from there, get plot summaries, credits, overviews of reviews, etc. A list of characters, an overview of critical commentaries, heck, a huge link collection of reviews of the series or of episodes. In other words, a way of having our article - structured with a clear lead section, and specific, well-sourced sections - be the top layer of a mass of well-organized content. Something that gives us an option for a topic beyond "have an article on it," "don't have an article on it," or "throw it into a messy list that doesn't quite function as an article."
Thoughts?
-Phil
Hey Phil - I work for a small wiki called "Wikinvest", and we've been working on a wiki for data for a few months now (data being especially important for investors). We should be launching it next week, at which point you can come check it out for yourself, but in the meantime TechCrunch wrote about us a bit the other week and has some screenshots, here: http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/02/06/wikinvest-to-add-unique-comp-data-for-s...
There are a few important features that we thought a "wiki for data" should have:
1) Datapoints may appear in many places on the site; anywhere updated should mean everywhere updated 2) Standard revision control features of a wiki should apply - people can change datapoints where they believe they have better information, those changes are surfaced in "recent changes", data has a history page and changes can be reverted, and we insist on sources for all data that is added or changed. 3) This is mostly applicable to us - the browse for data is organized in such a way that all data is associate with a company page and a metric page. So, for example, if I was reading an article about american airlines I could click on the "data tab" to see all the data for this company. One piece of data would be Revenue per Available Seat Mile (an important metric in the airline industry). If I clicked on "Revenue per Available Seat Mile" I'd be taken to a page with that data for all companies for which it was available...
What we're building might give you some ideas, or perhaps there's a way we can collaborate.
/prc
On Wed, Feb 13, 2008 at 1:34 PM, Philip Sandifer snowspinner@gmail.com wrote:
One of the frequent inclusion/deletion arguments has been over "cruft" of various sorts - plot summaries, "in popular culture" sections, strange but interesting lists ("List of songs that mention the title over n times" where n was something weird and large was an old favorite), etc. The basic problem in these cases is that while the information is often verifiable, it seems somewhat tangental to a reasoned and well-organized presentation of major facts on a subject.
<snip for length>
I propose that we need to dramatically rethink how we treat chunks of data on Wikipedia. In many cases - from fictional topics to real-world ones - there is often a large chunk of information that is worth presenting, but that does not present well in article form. Our current method of spin-off and sub-articles leaves us with a mass of articles that often make poor articles even as they contain valuable information. (And I would say that [[School Hard]] and [[Political positions of Hillary Rodham Clinton]] are articles of more or less exactly equal quality)
In more practical terms, what I'm imagining would be an article on, say, Buffy the Vampire Slayer that had some clear link to data and sidebars. Click on it, and a navigational engine comes up that guides you through the sidebar content - a list of episodes that one could delve into and, from there, get plot summaries, credits, overviews of reviews, etc. A list of characters, an overview of critical commentaries, heck, a huge link collection of reviews of the series or of episodes. In other words, a way of having our article - structured with a clear lead section, and specific, well-sourced sections - be the top layer of a mass of well-organized content. Something that gives us an option for a topic beyond "have an article on it," "don't have an article on it," or "throw it into a messy list that doesn't quite function as an article."
Thoughts?
-Phil
The name Wikidata is already taken, by the group of projects that aim to provide reusable static and dynamic facts. So for example, Wikidata will have a variable for {{population of Spain}}, that can be added to any Wikimedia project, but only needs to be updated in one location (or could be tied into an official U.N./Spanish xml feed for complete automation) http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata I don't know how far along any of the experiments are, or how close we are to getting it integrated to English Wikipedia, but I'm aching for it like nothing else...
As for expandable/tangential content sections, I adore the way Encyclopedia of Life's demo looks. Click the play button at http://www.eol.org/home.html for the "novice-to-expert slider" about halfway through. I think that's the lofty target we should aim for.
Quiddity
WIkiData is an idle name - we could frankly probably do just as well simply expanding and utilizing WikiSource. This is, after all, what WikiSource was largely intended to do before it became Project Gutenberg Lite.
The Encyclopedia of Life video is a good model for what I'm talking about. Essentially, my feeling is this: we have a ton of good content. Not all of it is encyclopedic content, but a lot of non-encyclopedic content is very, very good. While other people are trying to design shiny widgets like EoL and then fill the content in, *we have all the content already*. Our problem is that we have what is largely a mediocre-to-shitty interface for the content.
I suspect we are one of the few, if not just about the only project that could actually make an interface like this work. We have the content to make it more than just a gimmick. We have the contributors to actually organize the data and tag it usefully. I don't see where anybody else could do this.
-Phil
On Feb 15, 2008, at 4:12 PM, quiddity wrote:
The name Wikidata is already taken, by the group of projects that aim to provide reusable static and dynamic facts. So for example, Wikidata will have a variable for {{population of Spain}}, that can be added to any Wikimedia project, but only needs to be updated in one location (or could be tied into an official U.N./Spanish xml feed for complete automation) http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata I don't know how far along any of the experiments are, or how close we are to getting it integrated to English Wikipedia, but I'm aching for it like nothing else...
As for expandable/tangential content sections, I adore the way Encyclopedia of Life's demo looks. Click the play button at http://www.eol.org/home.html for the "novice-to-expert slider" about halfway through. I think that's the lofty target we should aim for.
Quiddity
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
I think nearly all of the problems you describe could be more functionally addressed by shunting them under a *SHOW* thingy. (Don't know what the technical term is for one of those, but they are everywhere on Wikipedia- namespace.)
In fact, since trivia sections are offensive to the sight to many, would not it be useful stopgap to put all those too into a collapsed form where each reader can expand them, if they are truly curious... ?