Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 23:10:24 -0400
Huh? I thought that we had pretty much accepted that the general trend for high-profile, highly edited articles is that as time passes they tend to become higher quality. The often incredible improvement for front page featured articles is proof enough of this. Do you have a particular example in mind of this deterioration effect?
I'm afraid I don't, not at hand, but one phenomenon I've noticed and am going to make a point of documenting the next time it occurs is that there is a significant tendency for references to be lost over time. I notice it because I try to be fairly punctilious about providing them, and in several cases when reviewing articles I put significant work into, say, a year ago, I find that treferences have been lost.
Given the inability to perform a text search through histories, it is sometimes fairly laborious to find them again. On the other hand, a Google search on anything that's been in Wikipedia for more than about six months is apt to turn up, overwhelmingly, WIkipedia and mirrors as the first few pages of hits. I believe, but I cannot prove, that Web sources quoted in Wikipedia, that _still exist,_ sometimes fail to show at all in Google searches if they are small and insignificant sites and there are hundreds of bigger ones (Wikipedia and mirrors).
As I say, I don't have an example to point to, but I'll make a point of doing so when I find one.
The edit history usually shows that what seems to be happening is very sloppy editing, particular in rewriting or restructuring parts of articles. Sometimes people will remove a sentence they think is wrong and inadvertently remove an adjacent reference. Sometimes people remove an item but not the reference that supports it. Sometimes people remove a reference but not the item it supports. Sometimes people remove an item and its reference, then later someone reinserts the item but fails to reinsert the reference...
On 4/10/06, Daniel P. B. Smith wikipedia2006@dpbsmith.com wrote:
The edit history usually shows that what seems to be happening is very sloppy editing, particular in rewriting or restructuring parts of articles. Sometimes people will remove a sentence they think is wrong and inadvertently remove an adjacent reference. Sometimes people remove an item but not the reference that supports it. Sometimes people remove a reference but not the item it supports. Sometimes people remove an item and its reference, then later someone reinserts the item but fails to reinsert the reference...
Okay, I think I see what you are getting a here. Some edits are deleterious. Sometimes good content is deleted and never restored. I guess that all I can do in response to that is to shrug and say that's the downside of open and free access; mistakes get made. I don't think there is anything to be done about it really, except try to correct each other's mistakes where we find them.
Ryan
Daniel P. B. Smith wrote:
I'm afraid I don't, not at hand, but one phenomenon I've noticed and am going to make a point of documenting the next time it occurs is that there is a significant tendency for references to be lost over time.
Hopefully the new cite.php reference formatting will help in this regard. Reference text can now be bundled directly with the text that it is a reference for with the list of references at the bottom of the page being automatically compiled from that. It makes it impossible to have "orphan references" now, and perhaps having the full description of the referenced material in place will make it harder for an editor to accidentally delete it when removing unrelated material.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Footnotes for anyone who was unaware of the new system. I'm loving it. :)
On 4/10/06, Bryan Derksen bryan.derksen@shaw.ca wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Footnotes for anyone who was unaware of the new system. I'm loving it. :)
I've already had one editor remove my references in this format, seemingly out of not liking it. Reverted and posted to his talk page and he hasn't done it again, but it was annoying.
Some editors seem to be unaware of a corollary of WP:CITE and WP:V; references should never be removed if the material that relies on that reference remains, unless a better reference can be found that completely supercedes the earlier one.
-Matt
On 4/10/06, Matt Brown morven@gmail.com wrote:
Some editors seem to be unaware of a corollary of WP:CITE and WP:V; references should never be removed if the material that relies on that reference remains, unless a better reference can be found that completely supercedes the earlier one.
I go further. I almost *never* remove references, because they're such a bitch to find and format in the first place. If I absolutely have to remove them (like, I really can't make any kind of case for relevance of the material) then I either just comment them out or move them to the talk page.
To me, it's kind of like a gardener who's been told to mow the lawn, only this beautiful rose has growing just inside the line of the lawn. Most people would try and leave it as long as possible. Some people would take pleasure in mowing it straight away, because "it has to be done some time".
Steve
Matt Brown wrote:
On 4/10/06, Bryan Derksen bryan.derksen@shaw.ca wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Footnotes for anyone who was unaware of the new system. I'm loving it. :)
I've already had one editor remove my references in this format, seemingly out of not liking it. Reverted and posted to his talk page and he hasn't done it again, but it was annoying.
I've wound up in "fights" over switching to the new reference formatting twice now. But I remember similar problems back when the automatic image thumbnailing feature was added to Wikimedia, with people who'd spent a lot of effort creating separate thumb-sized versions of images getting bent out of shape when their hard work started getting orphaned and deleted as redundant, and eventually everyone came around to the new way. I suspect this too shall pass.